ca 1905 Estate 249 restoration

 
luggw1
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Post by luggw1 » Wed. Aug. 17, 2022 11:51 am

I represent the Rocky Mountain Railroad Historical Society and I'm in the process of restoring the subject stove for installation in a wood caboose the Society owns. Photos of similar stoves I've looked at show two rods running from the base of the stove on each side up to holes in the oven area (not sure what that part of the stove is called). The holes are countersunk, so I assume the rods are drilled and tapped for screws. I need to know what the diameter of the rods should be and whether they should be drilled and tapped on both ends.
Stove1.jpg
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Any help would be greatly appreciated. Photos would help too.

Thanks
Bill Lugg


 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Aug. 17, 2022 3:34 pm

Welcome, Bill.

The top section is just a "cooktop", no oven.

I see a hole in the base but none on top. Are you sure yours is meant to have rods all the way through ? Some caboose stoves I seen don't have rods, just some way of bolting the stove down so it won't move. Could that be what yours has ?

If yours is supposed to have rods, I would assume that the rod size is the same as the hole size. First, so that there is no chance of the base shifting, and second, so that the top does not leak air into the firepot making it tougher to control the fire.

Paul

 
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Post by luggw1 » Wed. Aug. 17, 2022 4:49 pm

Paul,
I've attached a photo of a "restored" Estate 249 stove on Worthpoint (https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/estate-249 ... 1879173236).
SampleStove.png
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Note the rods from the base to oven area (firepot?), the bosses are about 6"-8" below the cooktop.

Our stove has the same holes and bosses in/on it (see the photos in the original post). It seems to me the rods would have to be large enough for a threaded hole to allow a screw from inside the oven and one from under the base. Otherwise, a person would have to lower the heavy assembly on to the firebox and align the rods all at the same time.

That's just me thinking out loud.

Bill Lugg

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Aug. 17, 2022 5:33 pm

Ok, so the rods are just to hold the stacked sections together. Not uncommon on some types of stoves. And if the holes are counter sunk then the rod gets a flush-sitting head - which was common with some stove fasteners.

I still think the rod size can be determined by what fills the holes.

FYI, there is no "oven area" on a stove like this. The section of the stove above the grates is just the firepot, with a "cooktop" as the top surface of the stove. The firepot has that drop-down loading door.

Under the firepot (below the grates) is the "ash pit" where the ash pan goes, and its door has the two spinner type "primary air dampers" used to feed a coal firebed. Coal needs its feed-air from below the firebed.

Wood needs it feed air from above through what is called a secondary damper above the level of the firebed - usually mounted in the loading door on such small stoves.

Since I don't see any secondary air damper above the grate level, I believe this stove was meant for primarily using coal, which makes sense in a caboose because it takes up less than 1/3 the space of the same BTU of wood.

Often with coal stoves there is a fireclay brick lining inside the firepot to keep higher temps in the firebed for more efficient combustion and less waste of coal.

Paul

 
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Post by mntbugy » Wed. Aug. 17, 2022 6:15 pm

What ever sized bolt fits the upper most hole, is the steel rod diameter to use.

Top of rod will need threaded enough to get a nut on it flush. Then heat end with nut in blacksmith forge. Drop rod into swedge block and hammer the daylights out of it. This with make a cone shape to fit into the top hole countersink.

The other end a long thread length. First nut tightens the stove parts together. The second nut goes under train car floor. To tighten stove to the train car.

Coal fires were discontinued in the later half of the 1880's in passenger cars.When a derail happened, which happened often,people died from the rollover, or burnt to death. They switched to oil which lessons burning to death. Coal still used to keep animals and produce from freezing.

Fixed.
Last edited by mntbugy on Thu. Aug. 18, 2022 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by luggw1 » Wed. Aug. 17, 2022 6:25 pm

Paul,
Thanks so much for all the info in your last post. That really helps. I just went out to do some work on it and measured the holes in the base - they're a little under 7/8", so I'm thinking a 1" rod would do the trick and there is room on the under side for a standard 3/8" flat washer, so I think that means the rod needs to be tapped 3/8"UNC-16 for the mounting hardware.

I'll have to find a local machine shop to do that work for me.

Thanks again.
Bill Lugg

 
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Post by Donb » Wed. Aug. 24, 2022 12:31 pm

The rods are supposed go down from the stove top and right on through the floor with a back up plate for the tightening hardware below. That way the stove stays put during hard switching moves and especially during a roll over as mentioned above. The door latches etc usually have an easily operated mechanism that prevents the unintended opening of the doors during a jolt.

Caboose coal stoves were installed in equipment through the 1940’s, went out of favor for oil and propane after that. Passenger equipment lost the coal stoves pretty early at the turn of the 20th century when steam from the locomotive was piped from car to car. Steam heat in passenger equipment lasted much longer as most diesel passenger locomotives of the 50’s and 60’s were equipped with an oil fired steam boiler to supply heat via the same connections used by steam locomotives.
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Post by freetown fred » Wed. Aug. 24, 2022 1:39 pm

L. ya need to get your ass in gear & show us some progress pix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

 
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Post by luggw1 » Wed. Aug. 24, 2022 3:35 pm

freetown fred wrote:
Wed. Aug. 24, 2022 1:39 pm
L. ya need to get your ass in gear & show us some progress pix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
OK, well, here you go...

This is it when we inherited it.
Stove1.jpg
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Here are the major parts after sandblasting and paint.
Stove-Painted.jpg
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I'll post more when I get it put back together.

By the way, I found a part with a patent date of 1912, so I now know it's at least 1912 or newer.

I also did some research on the use of coal for heating and cooking in cabooses and found that at least on the Union Pacific, both wood and steel cabooses had coal fired stoves well into the 1960s. In fact that became a problem when the cabooses entered pool services as the other roads didn't like the coal stoves. The UP started changing them out upon the initiation of pool service in those cabooses so assigned.

There's also a story related on Trainorders where a Rock Island caboose with an oil fired stove was run through on the Union Pacific with a UP crew. It apparently ran out of fuel so the UP crew built a coal fire in it. You can imagine the results weren't good. UP ended up paying to replace the internal components of the stove.

Bill Lugg
SDG

 
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Post by freetown fred » Wed. Aug. 24, 2022 5:16 pm

Lookin good my friend!!! :)

 
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Post by Donb » Wed. Aug. 24, 2022 7:27 pm

Another story to throw out…..
My dear late friend, James F Lafayette, was a Delaware & Hudson freight conductor out of Whitehall, NY. In his early years all the cabooses were wood on iron chassis with coal stoves for the upstate NY winters. As the nice and cozy old cabooses were worn out and used up they were replaced with all steel cabooses with oil burning heaters. The steel walls sucked the heat out so fast the oil burners couldn’t keep up. To cope they built little cardboard huts around the stoves. At least they were staying warm. As the cabooses were sent in for heavy maintenance they were insulated a bit but never enough. Rest in Peace Jim.

Don

 
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Post by freetown fred » Wed. Aug. 24, 2022 7:59 pm

Nice bit of history my friend!! :)

 
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Post by luggw1 » Tue. Aug. 30, 2022 6:44 pm

A little more progress...
Stove-Assembled-Small.jpg
.JPG | 178.6KB | Stove-Assembled-Small.jpg
Bill Lugg

 
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Post by freetown fred » Tue. Aug. 30, 2022 8:30 pm

She's lookin real nice L. :)

 
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Post by luggw1 » Thu. Sep. 08, 2022 11:02 am

And here it is finished and ready to go in the caboose.
FinishedStoveLeft.jpg
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FinishedStoveRight.jpg
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Here's the caboose it's going into:
RI17658.jpg
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From observations of another stove of the same type, it looks like we're missing the original case ash pan and a cast grate that goes in the upper part of the fire pot (for broiling?) does anyone know where we might be able to acquire those parts?

Thanks
Bill Lugg


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