Modern baseburner reproduction
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- Location: Elkhart county, IN.
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1 comforter stove works all iron coal box stove, seventies.
- Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner, GW #6, GW 113 formerly Sir Williams, maybe others at Pauliewog’s I’ve forgotten about
- Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
- Other Heating: none
yes, all units produced before modern regulatory efforts are exempt, period.
the second question is pretty much full of cross talk but for the most part, yes.
but let it be said that it is all as a result of the U.L. establishing itself thru lobbying as the sole and expert deciders of "fitness" as a private and monopolistic "for profit" purpose for their own gain, and they sold the insurance industry on the scheme on the basis that it would provide the same for them.
they are both pirates and rogues of the first magnitude.
the second question is pretty much full of cross talk but for the most part, yes.
but let it be said that it is all as a result of the U.L. establishing itself thru lobbying as the sole and expert deciders of "fitness" as a private and monopolistic "for profit" purpose for their own gain, and they sold the insurance industry on the scheme on the basis that it would provide the same for them.
they are both pirates and rogues of the first magnitude.
Last edited by KingCoal on Sun. Feb. 17, 2019 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Location: Western Massachusetts
- Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
- Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
- Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.
Still waaaaaayyyy to many antiques that are viable and available to use. The money is in digitally scanning the more popular stoves “wear parts” and reproducing them for the Antique market at an affordable alternative to 100 year old iron or crappy one off recasts.
- warminmn
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- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
- Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
- Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt
Its kind of like the baro/mpd debate with no correct answer, depending on individual setups/situations. Ive read SB has a heck of a good draft so can pull that low draft off without problems of losing draft from a cool chimney like some people would have and I bet it works well. I might be able to with a different stove/setup as I have a good draft too but i prefer .03-.05 most of the time with my stoves but higher in real cold weather.
Most modern stoves suggest the higher numbers in manuals but the antiques seem to work well with lower numbers, as many posts on here seem to verify, and is likely part of their high efficiency, as the slower the heat goes thru the chimneys the more heat they get from them. Im sure SB will have a different explanation but thats my simplified take on it, and maybe politer.
- Sunny Boy
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- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
A well drafting chimney is not what is controlling my stoves. The draft readings are lower because the base burner design stoves can burn the coal efficiently yet still extract so much more of that heat before it reaches the chimney.
The dampers, firebed density, and ability to slow and extract that heat through long flue paths are what is making the low mano readings. If I were to put both stoves in direct draft and not change the primary or MPD openings the mano readings would be much higher.
The reason I said .04 is high is because if you want to compare your boiler to a base heater, than .04 is high. It takes more heat and exhaust gas velocity going up a chimney to make .04 reading than it does a lower reading. That's heat not being extracted by the boiler to stay inside the dwelling.
My base heater does it's normal job of heating at .02.
And as a heater, the range extracts even more of the heat it makes so that it cruses along at .005 to .01.
That's at normal, cold weather heating, not idled down for lower heat output in warm weather. To idle the stoves down I have to open the dampers more, but the mano readings stay the same.
The mano readings are a direct indication of how efficient those two base heater designs are at extracting heat while at normal operating temperatures. If I had to run them at a higher mano reading to get them into the heating range, that would show that they would not be as efficient at extracting heat.
Paul
The dampers, firebed density, and ability to slow and extract that heat through long flue paths are what is making the low mano readings. If I were to put both stoves in direct draft and not change the primary or MPD openings the mano readings would be much higher.
The reason I said .04 is high is because if you want to compare your boiler to a base heater, than .04 is high. It takes more heat and exhaust gas velocity going up a chimney to make .04 reading than it does a lower reading. That's heat not being extracted by the boiler to stay inside the dwelling.
My base heater does it's normal job of heating at .02.
And as a heater, the range extracts even more of the heat it makes so that it cruses along at .005 to .01.
That's at normal, cold weather heating, not idled down for lower heat output in warm weather. To idle the stoves down I have to open the dampers more, but the mano readings stay the same.
The mano readings are a direct indication of how efficient those two base heater designs are at extracting heat while at normal operating temperatures. If I had to run them at a higher mano reading to get them into the heating range, that would show that they would not be as efficient at extracting heat.
Paul
You cannot have both high heating efficiency and complete and
clean burn of the fuel, if one goes up the other suffers .
My point was that you need much more information to tell if the draft
is excessive. The size of the draft port in your device is what regulates
how much air is admitted to the combustion process . Many other
variables also like grate free flow , % of grate in ash cover , size of
coal and many other factors too numerous to list .
You have to separate the combustion efficiency from the output
of the device , by many calculations and trials. The proper draft for
any fuel burner has to be a mix of all design features .
BigBarney
clean burn of the fuel, if one goes up the other suffers .
My point was that you need much more information to tell if the draft
is excessive. The size of the draft port in your device is what regulates
how much air is admitted to the combustion process . Many other
variables also like grate free flow , % of grate in ash cover , size of
coal and many other factors too numerous to list .
You have to separate the combustion efficiency from the output
of the device , by many calculations and trials. The proper draft for
any fuel burner has to be a mix of all design features .
BigBarney
- Sunny Boy
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- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
Go back and reread what I said.
I was talking about designed HEAT EXTRACTING efficiency. And base heaters blow your boiler out of it's water at that. The proof is in how high your .04 mano reading is compared to what a base heater normally has.
Something to wrap your mind around,..... if your boiler could extract even more heat from the exhaust and put it into the water, what do you think would happen to your mano readings. Yeah that's right, the readings would be lower,.... meaning less of the heat is going up the chimney,... just like a base heater.
BTW, have you had a chance to use your boiler to do all your cooking/baking, while it was heating the house, drying clothes, humidifying the air, and looking good enough to proudly have it on display in your kitchen or living room year round ?
Paul
I was talking about designed HEAT EXTRACTING efficiency. And base heaters blow your boiler out of it's water at that. The proof is in how high your .04 mano reading is compared to what a base heater normally has.
Something to wrap your mind around,..... if your boiler could extract even more heat from the exhaust and put it into the water, what do you think would happen to your mano readings. Yeah that's right, the readings would be lower,.... meaning less of the heat is going up the chimney,... just like a base heater.
BTW, have you had a chance to use your boiler to do all your cooking/baking, while it was heating the house, drying clothes, humidifying the air, and looking good enough to proudly have it on display in your kitchen or living room year round ?
Paul
- tcalo
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- Location: Long Island, New York
- Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40
- Coal Size/Type: Nut/stove anthracite
I disagree!!! An antique base burner excels in both heat output AND fuel efficiency. Trust me, these antique’s can’t be beat! If I let my stove burn out it’ll consume every last ounce of coal. Nothing but ash will be left in the stove! My stove/ stack temps are about 4:1. With such a low stack temp that should prove that the stove is extracting just about as much heat out of the coal as possible. That’s about as efficient as they make em’. I’m not knocking your boiler, but they are no comparison to antique bb’s. Antique’s look good, burn good and have multiple functions...all without the use of electric! Lets get back on track...please.
- Sunny Boy
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- Posts: 25560
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
+1tcalo wrote: ↑Tue. Feb. 19, 2019 12:22 amI disagree!!! An antique base burner excels in both heat output AND fuel efficiency. Trust me, these antique’s can’t be beat! If I let my stove burn out it’ll consume every last ounce of coal. Nothing but ash will be left in the stove! My stove/ stack temps are about 4:1. With such a low stack temp that should prove that the stove is extracting just about as much heat out of the coal as possible. That’s about as efficient as they make em’. I’m not knocking your boiler, but they are no comparison to antique bb’s. Antique’s look good, burn good and have multiple functions...all without the use of electric! Lets get back on track...please.
Paul
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- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
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That's a statement that is both correct and incorrect. It is true that adding more air will result in more complete and clean combustion, it also drives up stack temperature resulting in less overall efficiency.
Where it is incorrect is in the assumption that all configurations are equal. The round fire pot of the antiques is the configuration that is most conducive to even distribution of air, which in turn requires less air to burn cleanly and efficiently without the large amount of excess air otherwise required by less efficient configurations. That in turn keeps stack temps lower.
By adding more efficient heat exchange as well as secondary air in the right place in the same footprint, remarkable efficiency is achieved with the base heaters.
It's not the only way, but one of the better ways.
- warminmn
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- Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
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- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
- Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
- Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt
The posts after my last one were quite informative, my learning for the day, particularily the first two paragraphs of SB's post after mine.. makes sense to me. I had it figured wrong before. Thanks!
- tcalo
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- Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40
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As far as reproducing these fine works of art, what exactly is involved? The patterns need to be produced, then castings made. UL testing is a requirement for all new stoves, correct? Would this pose a problem with these designs? I assume a big chunk of the cost would be the patterns and testing. I’m curious if it could be done. I know King Coal has dabbled in this field and Larry from Chubby Stoves could offer some great insight since he recently sparked his business back up. Of course there’s the problem of demand. I know most on here would jump at the idea, but we’re a small percentage of the market. So....who’s going to jump in??
- Sunny Boy
- Member
- Posts: 25560
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
Casting a new base heater........
Yes, originally they had wooden patterns to form the mold cavities in the casting sand to pour molten cast iron into. Very labor intensive, so today that would be very expensive to make all those patterns. Especially if you want all the decretive work that many base heaters had.
However,..... we have many stove parts recast from originals all the time by foundries such as Tomahawk that specializes in that work.
The cool-downed shrinkage rate of cast iron is 1/8 inch to the foot. And all the parts I've had Tomahawk recast from my original parts as patterns have came back exactly that much smaller. So, as long as your not trying to get perfectly size-matched parts to an original, than using original parts, from a good original stove to use as the patterns should work. You'd just end up with a base heater that is slightly smaller - a little more than one percent smaller. Not enough difference to notice unless maybe if you parked a repro right next to an original.
The sheet metal barrels are not subject to casting shrinkage, but since they would have to be made new, it's no big deal to cut and roll them to fit the scaled-down size of the recast parts.
Selling it,.....
The biggest problem/expense is getting it UL listed for sale to the general public.
Paul
Yes, originally they had wooden patterns to form the mold cavities in the casting sand to pour molten cast iron into. Very labor intensive, so today that would be very expensive to make all those patterns. Especially if you want all the decretive work that many base heaters had.
However,..... we have many stove parts recast from originals all the time by foundries such as Tomahawk that specializes in that work.
The cool-downed shrinkage rate of cast iron is 1/8 inch to the foot. And all the parts I've had Tomahawk recast from my original parts as patterns have came back exactly that much smaller. So, as long as your not trying to get perfectly size-matched parts to an original, than using original parts, from a good original stove to use as the patterns should work. You'd just end up with a base heater that is slightly smaller - a little more than one percent smaller. Not enough difference to notice unless maybe if you parked a repro right next to an original.
The sheet metal barrels are not subject to casting shrinkage, but since they would have to be made new, it's no big deal to cut and roll them to fit the scaled-down size of the recast parts.
Selling it,.....
The biggest problem/expense is getting it UL listed for sale to the general public.
Paul
- Pauliewog
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- Location: Pittston, Pennsylvania
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Alaska 140 Dual Paddle Feed
- Baseburners & Antiques: Fame Rosemont #20, Home Stove Works #25, Glenwood #6, Happy Thought Oak, Merry Bride #214, Sunnyside, Worlds Argand #114, New Golden Sun , & About 30 others.
- Coal Size/Type: Stove, Chesnut, Pea, Rice / Anthracite
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- Member
- Posts: 4197
- Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
- Location: Western Massachusetts
- Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
- Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
- Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.
I would not buy a “New” BB unless it was made of modern construction materials and some updated theory, say...
Investment cast 316Ti body parts, 316Ti barrel, inconel grates, firepot, hardware and a crucible grade ceramic refractory. Of course it would have preheated primary and secondary air as well as a bi metallic controlled primary air inlet.
When this can be done with a retail price tag of less than 3.5K, LMK.
Investment cast 316Ti body parts, 316Ti barrel, inconel grates, firepot, hardware and a crucible grade ceramic refractory. Of course it would have preheated primary and secondary air as well as a bi metallic controlled primary air inlet.
When this can be done with a retail price tag of less than 3.5K, LMK.