Modern baseburner reproduction
- warminmn
- Member
- Posts: 8111
- Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
- Location: Land of 11,842 lakes
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
- Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
- Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt
A modern non-UL stove is different than an pre-UL antique, law wise. Its similar to having an old car that was made before the pollution requirements. It would be difficult to insure a new non-UL stove but not near as hard to insure an antique. It does really vary from insurer to insurer and from reading on here a lot of people have had problems.
You can remove the UL tag if you want too. The fact that it is listed is what matters. Ive had 2 modern non-UL woodstoves and I wouldnt want either one in my house as they were hard to control the fire in. They are outbuilding stoves for heating an area quickly, for short periods of time. I have 1 airtight pre-UL that I use, but its not an antique.
You can remove the UL tag if you want too. The fact that it is listed is what matters. Ive had 2 modern non-UL woodstoves and I wouldnt want either one in my house as they were hard to control the fire in. They are outbuilding stoves for heating an area quickly, for short periods of time. I have 1 airtight pre-UL that I use, but its not an antique.
-
- Member
- Posts: 4197
- Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
- Location: Western Massachusetts
- Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
- Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
- Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.
It’s not done simply because there is no profit in it.
- Sunny Boy
- Member
- Posts: 25570
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
Most municipalities and insurance companies go by the National Fire Codes. Those codes say that for non-UL stoves it requires 36 inch clearance to all combustibles. That includes antiques, too. What many don't know is that those same codes also list ways to safely reduce those clearances that are proven and acceptable.gardener wrote: ↑Fri. Jan. 18, 2019 10:02 amSmart_Ash,
You should check out the thread "A 1980 Reproduction" in the 'Imported Hand Fired Coal Stoves Using Anthracite' forum.
That is a nice looking reproduction!
I would be on the fence about it considering the clearances for non-UL solid fuel heating appliance.
I would think you would have to shop insurance agents to find someone who understands regulations.
I think I saw a thread on here of someone that properly placed their antique stove according the non-UL clearance and it was practically in the middle of their small room... like 3 feet from walls???
On the second photo in the thread I mentioned above, that reproduction has the UL plate, which ruins it for me. Granted in most homes I doubt people would be looking at the lower backside of the stove. I wonder if the UL plate could be attached to the underside of the base?
The problems arise because very few insurance agents, and even some code inspectors, are NOT familiar with the codes pertaining to stove installations.
Paul
uh oh, now I'm going to be on the hunt for those, I must know what those areSunny Boy wrote: ↑Fri. Jan. 18, 2019 12:20 pmMost municipalities and insurance companies go by the National Fire Codes. Those codes say that for non-UL stoves it requires 36 inch clearance to all combustibles. That includes antiques, too. What many don't know is that those same codes also list ways to safely reduce those clearances that are proven and acceptable.
The problems arise because very few insurance agents, and even some code inspectors, are NOT familiar with the codes pertaining to stove installations.
Paul
-
- Member
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 4:59 pm
- Baseburners & Antiques: McClary No. 114 base burner w/ oven
So, copyright laws were put in place in the 1920s in North America (Canada had them a few years before the United States) and many of the antique base burners pre-date these laws.
Could someone simply disassemble one of these stoves and have every component re-cast, with some components re-plated? You could do this with more modern metals than simply cast iron or "semi-steel" that was used for certain pieces. The cost would be... impressive. But, if someone wanted to create a duplicate of a fine specimen stove and had the budget to pay for it, I don't see why they couldn't do it.
As others have said, there's no market for it and the original stove would have more financial value than the re-creation. This doesn't get around any necessary certifications, UL-listings or anything else, and if anything this process would be a one-off for someone with more money than they know what to do with.
It could be done, though. Just very impractical.
Could someone simply disassemble one of these stoves and have every component re-cast, with some components re-plated? You could do this with more modern metals than simply cast iron or "semi-steel" that was used for certain pieces. The cost would be... impressive. But, if someone wanted to create a duplicate of a fine specimen stove and had the budget to pay for it, I don't see why they couldn't do it.
As others have said, there's no market for it and the original stove would have more financial value than the re-creation. This doesn't get around any necessary certifications, UL-listings or anything else, and if anything this process would be a one-off for someone with more money than they know what to do with.
It could be done, though. Just very impractical.
-
- Member
- Posts: 4837
- Joined: Wed. Apr. 03, 2013 1:24 pm
- Location: Elkhart county, IN.
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1 comforter stove works all iron coal box stove, seventies.
- Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner, GW #6, GW 113 formerly Sir Williams, maybe others at Pauliewog’s I’ve forgotten about
- Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
- Other Heating: none
yes this is also a true view of the issue.
steve
steve
Been reading about casting iron and pattern making, done with the casting iron subject, but just getting started with the pattern making reading. I have started to wonder if the manufacturers of these antique stoves, how they went about designing one.
Did they create a fitted model out of wood, then strip it down and add material to each part to account for shrinkage (use these as the patterns)?
Or did they create a fitted model out of wood, strip it down, create duplicate parts that are slightly larger than the model's parts to account for shrinkage (use these larger copies as the patterns)?
They must have done a lot of grinding of the cast pieces to get fit without gaskets!
What would they have used to grind the highpoints off with?
What do modern restoration shops use after having replacement parts cast?
Did they create a fitted model out of wood, then strip it down and add material to each part to account for shrinkage (use these as the patterns)?
Or did they create a fitted model out of wood, strip it down, create duplicate parts that are slightly larger than the model's parts to account for shrinkage (use these larger copies as the patterns)?
They must have done a lot of grinding of the cast pieces to get fit without gaskets!
What would they have used to grind the highpoints off with?
What do modern restoration shops use after having replacement parts cast?
Last edited by gardener on Thu. Jan. 24, 2019 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Sunny Boy
- Member
- Posts: 25570
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
Like many other manufactured goods, they most likely worked from design drawings. At least that's how a lot of foundry work was done in the auto industry. My car club- for a make of cars built here in NYS- has the original factory drawings going back to their first car built in 1902. Many of those drawings were for the pattern shop and out-source foundries. That process is still used today, but the drawings are done in a computer, not drawn on Velum, Mylar, or waxed linen, like in my drafting/tech illustrating days.
To build the patterns, pattern makers have special measuring tools that are compensated in length for the shrinkage of the cast material they are working with. So all they need to do was use the measurements worked out on the drawings, with the right ruler for the cast material, when building the patterns. And pattern maker shops were common and advanced in accuracy by the time stoves were being built. Many foundries still have pattern shops in house. And there are independent pattern shops that will do work for foundries that don't need their own full-time pattern shop.
Example; cast iron shrinks 1/8 inch in every foot of length after it comes out of the mold and cools down. 12 inches length on pattern maker's ruler for cast iron would be 1/8 inch longer than 12 inches on a standard ruler. All the other graduations on that pattern ruler are proportional to that longer length. So if you need a 6 inch long casting, the 6 inch length on a pattern makers ruler is actually 6-1/16 inch long.
You can still buy pattern maker type rulers from machine shop supply houses.
Paul
To build the patterns, pattern makers have special measuring tools that are compensated in length for the shrinkage of the cast material they are working with. So all they need to do was use the measurements worked out on the drawings, with the right ruler for the cast material, when building the patterns. And pattern maker shops were common and advanced in accuracy by the time stoves were being built. Many foundries still have pattern shops in house. And there are independent pattern shops that will do work for foundries that don't need their own full-time pattern shop.
Example; cast iron shrinks 1/8 inch in every foot of length after it comes out of the mold and cools down. 12 inches length on pattern maker's ruler for cast iron would be 1/8 inch longer than 12 inches on a standard ruler. All the other graduations on that pattern ruler are proportional to that longer length. So if you need a 6 inch long casting, the 6 inch length on a pattern makers ruler is actually 6-1/16 inch long.
You can still buy pattern maker type rulers from machine shop supply houses.
Paul
I found it last night in the 2019 edition of NFPA 211 section "13.6.2 Clearance Reduction".
"13.6.2.1 Clearances from listed and unlisted solid fuel-burning appliances to combustible material shall be permitted to be reduced if the combustible material is protected as described in" ...
"13.6.2.2 Where the required clearance with no protection is 36 in. (914 mm), the clearances in" ... reductions by materials
"13.6.2.3 Unless the appliance is specifically listed for lesser clearance, the clearance after reduction shall be not less than the following:
(1) 12 in. (305 mm) to combustible walls
(2) 18 in. (457 mm) to combustible ceilings"
I would say that a potential from one foot spacing is way better than three feet for a free standing stove!
- Smart_Ash
- Member
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Wed. Jan. 14, 2015 6:20 pm
- Location: Apalachin, NY
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 1.0 Hitzer 50-93
I guess I’m just wondering why are there not any new stoves with the technology of the old. A mica baseburner with a suspended fire pot in my opinion is far superior to my black metal box with a 6” hole in the back. It seems like stove builders back in the day put a lot more craftsmanship and thought into the stove.
- McGiever
- Member
- Posts: 10130
- Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
- Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
- Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
- Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar
If true Joe, and they had the lion's share of the stove market, then the competition stove mfg'r would also get on board to get in on that flourishing market.
I don't blame the mfg'r, I blame the ignorant consumers for not recogniizing a poorly made inefficent stove.
I'm sure there where poorly made stoves of that time era also, though.
If the stove faultered in older days one didn't just bump the furnace wall thermostat up and go on...
I don't blame the mfg'r, I blame the ignorant consumers for not recogniizing a poorly made inefficent stove.
I'm sure there where poorly made stoves of that time era also, though.
If the stove faultered in older days one didn't just bump the furnace wall thermostat up and go on...