I thank you all for getting me started

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dixonsantiques
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Post by dixonsantiques » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 8:25 am

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Been in the antique business since 1976. Heat with wood at home and bought this stove to use in my shop. Stove was in pretty good shape, so mostly I sealed it up with glass rope and stove cement. Stove black and some rubbing on the nickel with super fine steel wool. Not Air Tight like it claims, but I figured it needed some air to burn anyway and I leave primaries closed and use the damper to regulate. I can get 12+ hour overnight burns . Still, I have a couple questions and observations you may address.

Match Lite made first start up easy. So easy and due to my inexperience had the firepot RED in no time, which also burned / cured stove black and stove pipe in no time. SMOKED up the shop ! :D Question, overfiring didn't seem to hurt anything and when stove is kinda hot, 5-600 F pot glows, not as red, but still red. I figure this is normal? I read where some line the pot with refractory cement, but this stove wasn't made that way and I suspect I'm not the first to overfire it. Grates and shaker work fine.

I read the 10+ year thread on MPDs and Baros, but I am hoping someone can give me more info on the rotary style damper that is on this stove. At night I close damper all the way which opens the air vents completely. Stove will run 4-500 F and stove pipe will be around 170 a foot above. During the day I open damper a little to bring up stove temp which also brings up pipe temp. Is this thing like a manually operated baro ? I do have a Co2 monitor. 0 reading

Pictures are first burning, brightest red.

Thank you all again, Kent Dixon

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michaelanthony
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Post by michaelanthony » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 10:12 am

dixonsantiques wrote:
Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 8:25 am
20171118_095507.jpgBeen in the antique business since 1976. Heat with wood at home and bought this stove to use in my shop. Stove was in pretty good shape, so mostly I sealed it up with glass rope and stove cement. Stove black and some rubbing on the nickel with super fine steel wool. Not Air Tight like it claims, but I figured it needed some air to burn anyway and I leave primaries closed and use the damper to regulate. I can get 12+ hour overnight burns . Still, I have a couple questions and observations you may address.

Match Lite made first start up easy. So easy and due to my inexperience had the firepot RED in no time, which also burned / cured stove black and stove pipe in no time. SMOKED up the shop ! :D Question, overfiring didn't seem to hurt anything and when stove is kinda hot, 5-600 F pot glows, not as red, but still red. I figure this is normal? I read where some line the pot with refractory cement, but this stove wasn't made that way and I suspect I'm not the first to overfire it. Grates and shaker work fine.

I read the 10+ year thread on MPDs and Baros, but I am hoping someone can give me more info on the rotary style damper that is on this stove. At night I close damper all the way which opens the air vents completely. Stove will run 4-500 F and stove pipe will be around 170 a foot above. During the day I open damper a little to bring up stove temp which also brings up pipe temp. Is this thing like a manually operated baro ? I do have a Co2 monitor. 0 reading

Pictures are first burning, brightest red.

Thank you all again, Kent Dixon
First things first, that is one handsome stove you have there 8-) A manometer is an excellent tool to measure your draft, although not used when your stove was built it will tell you what your exhaust system is doing. The check damper located on the rear elbow is not a baromatric damper, it does not self adjust. It will help tame strong winds and gusts but it stays where you set it. You said the stove leaks...I would find those leaks using incense or a b.b.q. lighter and watch where the flame gets sucked in. Your primary air inlets may need addressing. If I use my check damper my stove will cool not increase in temp although I can see how your's slows the exhaust by introducung room air to the combustion stream thus keeping more heated air in the stove. If you choose to burn some wood a mpd could be helpful but the check damper should not be used with wood.

Please explain: "At night I close damper all the way which opens the air vents completely."....."I open the damper a little to bring stove temp which brings up pipe temp." My thought is if your stove is leaking into the fire and slowing the exhaust with the check damper is causing your stove to get hotter. If the stove was tight the temp should stay constant or decrease by opening the check damper.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 11:11 am

Welcome, Kent. Beautiful stove you've got there !!!! Should be a able to throw a lot of heat, efficiently.

The old-time version of "air-tight" had a looser meaning than what we think of with modern stoves. Yes, even through they were often advertised as air-tight, antique stoves have "some" slight air leakage - which they were designed to handle. The question is how much is too much ?

As Mike pointed out, a manometer can tell you alot about how well a stove is drafting, which can point to if the original designed tiny air leaks are not so tiny anymore.

Some stoves had lined pots, some didn't. And with some, it was an option when ordering the stove. If you find that the firepot glows alot when you get the stove putting out the heat level you like, then you should think about adding a refractory liner. It's not expensive of difficult. And. it has the added advantage of helping the coal firebed stay hotter so that you get more complete combustion of the coal and less waste in the ash.

The spin dampers in the ash drawer door are your primary air feed with coal. Unlike wood, coal burns best from the bottom up, so underfire air control is more critical with coal than it is with wood.

The spin damper in the loading door is the secondary damper. It allows some over-fire air to help burn off the volatile gases produced as the coal burns. What we call the "dancing Blue ladies". Mostly that gas is "CO" - carbon monoxide. Burning it captures the heat value of it, plus prevent that gas from build up to explosive levels by letting it burn as it's produced. So a little bit of secondary air inlet is a good thing.

But don't over do it with the dampers. More isn't better ! Just as too much primary air can cause a runaway firebed, too much secondary air over the firebed can slow and possibly stall the fire.

The rotary damper in the cast iron pipe elbow is called a check damper. "Check" as in keep the fire in check. It's meant to cause a controllable "air leak" into the exhaust to help reduce a too-strong draft. You only need it if you are certain that your chimney system has such a strong draft that it makes it tough to get the stove to not run too hot using the primary damper and the MPD (manual pipe damper). Think of it like an extra brake for whenever coming down steep hills. But, use too much of it and you might slow the draft to a stop !!!! :D

So, simply put, the primary dampers feed the fire to adjust the level of heat output you want. The MPD slows the exit of the high speed exhaust to give it more time to transfer that heat indoors, rather than let it race up the chimney. A little bit of secondary damper use captures more heat, while helping prevent gas buildup "puff backs". And, the check damper should only be used to reduce a too-strong drafting chimney system.

Paul


 
dixonsantiques
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Post by dixonsantiques » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 8:50 pm

Mike and Paul I thank you for your replies. Will get a manometer and hunt for more leaks. I didn't explain about how my check damper works very well. The only exhaust pipe damper plate ( MPD ) is in this curved cast iron piece and as you close the damper it simultaneously opens the rotary air gaps to allow room air to be drawn into pipe. So when I say I close the damper, I do close the damper and the more I close it the more the air vents open. It is tied together, I can't operate the air vents independent of the damper plate. Looks original to the stove, but I wonder if I would be better off without it and just used an MPD.

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scalabro
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Post by scalabro » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 9:14 pm

That’s a unique elbow🤯!

I see how they are keyed to each other, but have YOU had the elbow off and confirmed that there is a pipe damper inside?

Otherwise it could be that the handle on what you think is a damper just opens the check🤔

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 9:29 pm

Interesting that those two dampers were combined. Most stove makers kept them separate, which I think is a better way to have it considering that each stove and chimney system environment is so unique.

I always use the MPD. And there are times I also use the check damper, but it's rare. I've found the check damper is only needed when bitter cold weather makes the draft strength exceptionally strong.

Using that combo MPD and check damper would depend a lot on how strong your chimney draft is.

For instance, if the chimney draft is marginal, you can open the primary air more and boost the fire to keep it stronger, yet still slow the exhaust exit by closing the MPD more. Slowing the exhaust velocity will allow more heat to transfer indoors.

But, if check damper opens as you try to use more MPD, you'll be increasingly cooling the exhaust the more you try to hold it back, which might be reducing that marginal draft even more than would allow the fire to produce good heat output that you want to hold in with more MPD.

Paul


 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 7:30 am

"i" know how to off set the axle on the plate to get it to work from there and i'm sure the makers did too and pairing them "could" make sense if the feature was being used as a "check" as intended.

want to knock down some over draft ? close the pipe damper and open the check in ratio with each other. seems to me you would rarely need very much opening in the check with this set up.

from there you can still add or subtract primary to maintain comfort level.

pretty cool gadget.

steve

 
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michaelanthony
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Post by michaelanthony » Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 8:16 am

Wow a mpcd, manual pipe check damper! :clap: a very cool gadget. I suggest a log book starting with outside temp and wind conditions and go from there noting all the various setting, stove temps, upper and lower, and pipe temp before and after your cool mpcd...along with your manometer readings. A fun project.

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