Base heater rebuild question

 
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michaelanthony
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Post by michaelanthony » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 8:27 pm

I am ready to start the rebuild of my Home Sparkle 12 base heater and this week end I'll line the fire pot and let is slow dry in the sun.
My stove is a suspended pot type base heater similar to Crawfords, some Glenwoods, and others. My stove is held together with threaded rods and nuts. the top and bottom plates of the base hold the 4 sides in place and the 30" barrel is also held in place with threaded rods as well.
I am thinking of having the 4 threaded rods that hold the base together extend an inch or more under the stove, (out of sight ), and using a washer, tension spring, washer, then 2 nuts.
I am thinking of doing this to the 2, 3 ft rods that hold the barrel between the top and base as well. This would allow for expansion or contraction of some new cast parts keeping a constant restraint on the entire stove.
Has anyone tried this? Is there a problem with this idea? Lets hear it! :yes: , :no1:


 
scalabro
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Post by scalabro » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 8:45 pm

An interesting idea Mike!

U mean like V8 engine valve springs?

You'd have to get one of our forum rocket scientists to calculate the force applied to the bolts under operational conditions without the spring setup to give you a starting point...

I could see how if properly done it would tend to minimize cracks and keep the stove parts clamped under an optimal load over a wide temp range.
Last edited by scalabro on Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 8:50 pm

If the rods can get about as hot as the parts they are holding together, they will expand and contract at the same rate, no springs need. Steel and cast iron are very close to the same rate of heat expansion.

So, if the rods are going back in the same place they were before, it's very likely that their expansion was taken into consideration and no change of design is needed.

And, if your thinking of putting the springs where they can get very hot, that heat can "draw" the temper out of them over time and weaken them.
Paul

 
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michaelanthony
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Post by michaelanthony » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 9:00 pm

scalabro wrote:
Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 8:45 pm
An interesting idea Mike!

U mean like V8 engine valve springs?

You'd have to get one of our forum rocket scientists to calculate the force applied to the bolts under operational conditions without the spring setup to give you a starting point...

I could see how if properly done it would tend to minimize cracks and keep the stove parts clamped under an optimal load over a wide temp range.
Yup, you got my drift Scott. My thinking on this evolved from the many decades of difference between the old cast and new ones as well as the rods themselves.
Sunny Boy wrote:
Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 8:50 pm
If the rods can get about as hot as the parts they are holding together, they will expand and contract at the same rate, no springs need. Steel and cast iron are very close to the same rate of heat expansion.

So, if the rods are going back in the same place they were before, it's very likely that their expansion was taken into consideration and no change of design is needed.

And, if your thinking of putting the springs where they can get very hot, that heat can "draw" the temper out of them over time and weaken them.
Paul
My thought is the 4 corner rods to have the tension set up on the bottom of the stove facing the floor...a cool-er location. I am still debating on the 2 longer rods having the set up on the top or bottom. location, location, location hahaha!

 
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Post by tcalo » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 9:05 pm

Wouldn't the stove cement hold everything pretty tight anyway? I didn't tighten the bolts on my G109 all that much, just snugged them up.

 
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Post by michaelanthony » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 9:11 pm

tcalo wrote:
Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 9:05 pm
Wouldn't the stove cement hold everything pretty tight anyway? I didn't tighten the bolts on my G109 all that much, just snugged them up.
Good point Tom but I'm sailing in unchartered waters. My virgin bb rebuild.

 
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Post by warminmn » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 9:52 pm

I bet heat wont matter on the bottom, at least not enough to affect the springs. My only example would be how much heat a magnet takes before it falls off of my stove, almost red hot. I would think a "good" spring would be similar to a magnet.


 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 10:37 pm

warminmn wrote:
Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 9:52 pm
I bet heat wont matter on the bottom, at least not enough to affect the springs. My only example would be how much heat a magnet takes before it falls off of my stove, almost red hot. I would think a "good" spring would be similar to a magnet.

The temp can get drawn out of springs at much lower temps than before they reach red hot. Depending on the alloy used to make the springs heat can start weakening them in as low as getting into the 400F range.

Mike,
In a post about rotary damper springs, DLJ, who is a metallurgist, mentioned a steel spring alloy that is better at holding temper at stove operating temperatures. You might want to pm him and ask about that.

Paul

 
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Post by scalabro » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 10:42 pm

I could get Mike 6 exhaust valve springs from an R2800 hahahahahahahahaha!

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 10:58 pm

scalabro wrote:
Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 10:42 pm
I could get Mike 6 exhaust valve springs from an R2800 hahahahahahahahaha!
Both air cooled,.... a P-47 base heater. :lol:

Paul

 
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Post by warminmn » Thu. Oct. 19, 2017 6:48 am

Sunny Boy wrote:
Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 10:37 pm
warminmn wrote:
Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 9:52 pm
I bet heat wont matter on the bottom, at least not enough to affect the springs. My only example would be how much heat a magnet takes before it falls off of my stove, almost red hot. I would think a "good" spring would be similar to a magnet.

The temp can get drawn out of springs at much lower temps than before they reach red hot. Depending on the alloy used to make the springs heat can start weakening them in as low as getting into the 400F range.

Mike,
In a post about rotary damper springs, DLJ, who is a metallurgist, mentioned a steel spring alloy that is better at holding temper at stove operating temperatures. You might want to pm him and ask about that.

Paul
Notice I used the term "good" , not "junk" or "chinese made" spring. :)

 
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Post by freetown fred » Thu. Oct. 19, 2017 8:13 am

I was always REAL impressed with the original design of these BB's & always get a good laugh out of all the "IMPROVEMENTS" our modern day geniuses come up with.(not pickin on ya Lee) .>) I believe if a stove is put together PROPERLY--they will work for a LONG time the way they are/were meant to. Just sayin. MA, where the hell is my butter cake??? LOL

 
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Post by wilsons woodstoves » Thu. Oct. 19, 2017 8:24 am

oooooooooooooooo butter cake sounds good....

 
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Post by franco b » Thu. Oct. 19, 2017 9:11 am

I lean toward what Paul said about equal expansion of the tie rods. I would be more concerned with corrosion of the rods and perhaps use stainless if available.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Oct. 19, 2017 9:36 am

warminmn wrote:
Thu. Oct. 19, 2017 6:48 am
Sunny Boy wrote:
Wed. Oct. 18, 2017 10:37 pm



The temp can get drawn out of springs at much lower temps than before they reach red hot. Depending on the alloy used to make the springs heat can start weakening them in as low as getting into the 400F range.

Mike,
In a post about rotary damper springs, DLJ, who is a metallurgist, mentioned a steel spring alloy that is better at holding temper at stove operating temperatures. You might want to pm him and ask about that.

Paul
Notice I used the term "good" , not "junk" or "chinese made" spring. :)
Even a, "good" spring can heat-weaken if it's not made from a spring steel alloy that is designed to be used in high heat applications. Not all of even the "best" springs are designed for that. ;)

Dave (DLJ), can explain it better.

However, Scott's offer of R2800 valve springs at least cover the, "wow, that's cool" factor. :D

Paul


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