Troubles With Kitchen Coal Stove Draft

coalstovelady wrote: ↑

Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 4:50 pm

Also about opening a window in the basement - yesterday I even had my basement 'bilco door' opened for a short time while the kitchen stove upstairs was lit and it had no affect on increasing the draft as I kept checking on it.

This is good, not that it fixed the problem, but good that I don't think the basement is stealing your draft.

"Stack effect" is a fancy name for pressure differences inside the house. It's similar to how a chimney behaves, hence the term "stack". During cold weather, stack effect occurs in the house. Since the warm air in the house is less dense than the cold air outside, it is pushed out at the upper levels by cold air infiltration coming in at the lower levels of the home. This creates an uneven pressure in the house with higher pressure upstairs and lower pressure downstairs. Kind of like trapping air inside an inverted cup in the bathtub. Put a pin hole at the top and the water pushes the air out and it's replaced with water.

Stack effect of the house can have adverse effects on chimney draft. For example, if you open a window upstairs during the winter it will move the neural pressure plane up there creating severe negative pressure downstairs which could even cause a chimney draft reversal. That's why it's recommended to open a window at the stove level, which brings the neural pressure plane down lower, so the chimney then doesn't have any competition with the home's stack effect.

So going along with all that I suggested opening a window to the basement, but that didn't fix the problem. So it stands to reason that stack effect can be eliminated.

Very pretty stove.
It appears that the broiler door is top front left, and the primary air openings are left side bottom.

First impression is that the coal depth is not deep enough to sustain a coal fire. 6 inch minimum for the mix of nut and pea.

Thank you. Besides the Kewanee being replaced by a different (by two different) furnaces over the past 5 years, one other thing is different and seems so minor I didn't mention it but will do that now. Previously the chute to the concrete ash pit was not nailed tight to the ceiling in the basement/floor the stove sits upon. The chute is stove pipe which goes together and down into the pit. The top pipe was not nailed in and was easily accessible if the ashes being pushed down by the poker got stuck, i.e. a large piece of coal. Because the Kewanee was a huge machine and insulated, one could lie on top and remove and shove back into place, the stove pipe after removing the jam. When I got the new furnace that was not possible due to the location of the stoker, height of it much smaller, etc. Therefore I would have become a yogi trying to climb a ladder and access that area. My plumber did teach me a way to do it but it was very difficult and I could have injured myself. So he nailed the stove pipe to the basement ceiling beneath the slide. My point in mentioning this is that there was about an inch of air space beneath the slide and the stove pipe around the stove pipe. That could have enhanced the draft - I just don't know. I hope that doesn't become the issue because those pipes sometimes would come apart and fall and I would spent hours getting them all back together and up in that area. That is why my plumber nailed the top one to the ceiling and he connected the others together with nails so that they didn't come apart. If you require photos of that I can take some and provide for your view. I'm not sure at this point that it is necessary. It was just a thought. I will say that since I got the slide to "almost" close there was a difference in the draft from the fire I tried to build on Friday and went out in about 1/2 hour to the fire I built yesterday which lasted about 4 hours before dying.

FWIW that is tiny coal...

I agree with franco. The bed needs to be deeper.

Thank you - I love my stove. It is the heart of the home. I do not see the broiler door top left that you are referring to here???? What are you seeing on my stove that I do not know? Please help me identify. As for the coal depth, please help me to understand what you mean? I started a whole new fire directly on the grates. I burned paper, then wood, then kept adding coal but if I added too much coal it would have smothered the wood embers? So it never got to build up to 6 inches as you say - it died before that. I will attach another photo of my fire box that I took years ago red hot.

What is "tiny coal"?

coalstovelady wrote: ↑

Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 6:39 pm

I tried to build on Friday and went out in about 1/2 hour to the fire I built yesterday which lasted about 4 hours before dying.

It was much colder yesterday than on Friday. I wonder if that has any factor on the 4 hour burn. How deep were you able to build the coal bed yesterday?

Is the grate nice and clear before your attempts?

I don't mean to question your ability to start and maintain a coal fire since you have several times more experience than me but, is it possible you aren't using enough kindling wood?

never mind, sorry

What you see on the photo is a combination of the ashes left on Friday and what I built yesterday. I didn't even bother to rake down the ashes of Friday because they were so few. Temperatures here in Pennsylvania haven't changed all that much over the weekend. My thoughts - that should have no bearing on the burn. The prior owner only had the kitchen cook stove - no other stove, and she cooked daily and raised her family with this stove 365 days a year. Since I purchased the home 40 years ago I can't say I ever lit my stove in the summer or in warm weather. Being that October gets a little chilly at night I wanted to try lighting it again holding my breath that it wouldn't go out but it did.

The broiler is the door with the shutter top left front, or at least that is what it looks like to me. It should swing open to use, and the shutter can be opened for the wood fire phase and closed for coal.

When you say the last coal fire lasted four hours I assume that it never got hot enough with blue flames for you to consider adding more coal and that is why it is so shallow.

The problem I have is that you have been using the stove for many years and so are well acquainted with how to start a coal fire and how it behaved in the past.

Try a layer of Kingsford charcoal on the wood fire and then coal. Be certain the damper is in the position for direct draft and not the oven position, and that moving that damper lever is actually moving the damper plate.

If it can't sustain a good glowing charcoal fire to add coal to. then it has to be a lack of air up through the grates. You do have the primary air shutter on the lower left side open? Stupid question, but I found myself sliding the temperature control in my car the wrong way after ten years owning it.

Maybe it's time to really diagnose the draft with a manometer.

Michael, Thank you. I appreciate input from all knowledgeable people. You might have missed a few posts. My slide is stuck in that position. My chimney man suggested that we block the chute as a test to see if that works before tearing everything apart. It was open even more but I got it to slide in with less of an opening. I should mention that there has always been an opening for all the years I am here - 40. I don't ever remember it being totally shut and it always burned before I lost the Kewanee furnace. Please explain what you mean by my new gas furnace has an outside air source? I don't understand? The gas furnace in the basement is connected to the chimney just as is the kitchen stove. Two flues, one large chimney. Yesterday I even had the cellar bilco door opened for awhile as I shoveled some ashes from the pit to clean up a bit on a nice autumn day. It had no effect on my kitchen coal stove with the door open. My kitchen is very large - seven doors in it. I just don't think cracking a window would be needed. It's not an air tight kitchen.

Lightning - I used a lot of kindling. Starting the fire has never been a problem. It's when I start adding the coal that it dies. It is just not getting hot enough and the draft dies. In the past if I turned my back on building the fire or not shutting the draft, my lids would turn red. But thank you for mention of that.

What is a manometer?

Franco, I am still not certain what you are referring to as the broiler. The item I think you are referring to is just a holder of sorts or a "warmer" as a little cup of butter can be placed on that when it is opened. There are holders on both sides. See the front view photo of my stove. It has no holes behind it just flat surface of the stove. No type of draft on that item. Only draft item is center built into the stove pipe that runs up the middle. That draft has a slide that will open to cool down the draft if stove it burning too hot. In the past I would open that, shut the draft below the fire box, and sometimes even tilt some lids to cool it down. .... You are correct that the stove never got hot enough to add more coal and that is why there is a shallow bed. When I did add some coal is when it simply died and believe me I didn't smother it. I wasn't seeing the blue flame and the draft was dying. ..... Yes I did have the draft open full below the fire box on the left. Once I tried charcoal. A friend had suggested that. That was a year or so ago. It made no difference. It died. It's not getting air in from the draft. ... You said this " Be certain the damper is in the position for direct draft and not the oven position, and that moving that damper lever is actually moving the damper plate." How can I be certain that the damper lever is actually moving the damper plate? I tested it yesterday while the paper and wood was burning to be certain of that and when I pulled the lever out a bit of smoke started to back up so I immediately pushed the lever in and up the chimney went the smoke. So I think that is the test for the damper plate or would I be incorrect? I have started to second guess myself and I should not. My stove always burned and burned very well until the Kewanee died and until we nailed the chute so the ash pipes wouldn't fall down as I explained previously. The slide to release the ashes did get opened more widely but that was remedied just about to the size of the hole before, perhaps a little bigger opening. I can try to get the slide in more? It will take a lot of work and before I would have someone take everything apart I would like to run a test first if that is the problem. My chimney man and I have talked about stuffing insulation in that hole just for a test. Even that would be time consuming because all the ash chute pipes would need to be removed as I described earlier, then put back together - a big task with the new furnace in the way. By the way I have a steam heat system in my home. Lots of pipes are around that furnace. It also provides me with my domestic hot water. I do appreciate your knowledge. Thank you so much.

Lightning wrote: ↑

Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 7:36 pm

Maybe it's time to really diagnose the draft with a manometer.

Ding Ding Ding!!!!