Troubles With Kitchen Coal Stove Draft

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 11:34 am

CSL,
Trouble shooting a stove problem is just a simple process of elimination of possibilities. You've already done some of that by trying different brands and sizes of coal. So, there's two things we can consider not a cause.

So, after a thorough inspection of the entire range, inside and out, for leaks, the next best way is to change one thing about the operating conditions at a time and then test to see if that makes a consistent change, ..... either a reduction, or an improvement, or the problem has been resolved.

If the house heat sharing the chimney is somehow causing a problem for the range operating on coal, then the way to test that is shutoff the house heat, let it's share of the chimney cool off while you see if using coal still has the same problem or not. If there is a change in coal burning, then you know to check out the house heat for why removing it from the equation showed a change.

Then to make sure, put the house heat back on while the range is running on coal and see if the house heat causes the fire to die back.

When there is no change then that possibility is eliminated and other possibilities can be explored.

Paul


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 11:39 am

Sunny Boy wrote:
Mon. Oct. 16, 2017 11:42 pm
I think the limit is still five pictures per post so you may have to start another post to add more pictures than that.
It's 30, there is limit of 3 on Private messages.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 11:44 am

Richard S. wrote:
Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 11:39 am
Sunny Boy wrote:
Mon. Oct. 16, 2017 11:42 pm
I think the limit is still five pictures per post so you may have to start another post to add more pictures than that.
It's 30, there is limit of 3 on Private messages.

Thanks Richard, good to know.

BTW, I love that drag and drop method of the new site, and how much faster the pix load !!!! Thank you again.

Paul

 
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Sunny Boy
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Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 11:53 am

CSL,
After you test by shutting off the house heat for a few hours while the range is running on coal,... next I'd recommend getting that ash duct slide to close fully to eliminate that as a possible cause.

Maybe the house's natural "stack affect" , plus the house heat draft when it's on is causing a slight reduction in air pressure in the basement that through that ash duct is working against the range's weaker-than-wood draft strength with coal ????

As others have said, opening a window, or door in the basement would feed plenty of air to overcome that and might show a change that would point to lower air pressure in the ash duct being the cause, by robbing some of the primary air feed to the coal bed ????

Then, I'd suggest a through inspection inside all the range's flues to make sure they are completely clear, not are there any air leaks into the flues.

BTW, if there are air leaks into the flues you will never smell smoke because the greater pressure outside the flues leaks air in, not smoke out. So the only way to tell is by inspecting with a light on the opposite side, or using a piece of smoldering string passed closely over all the seams to see if the smoke gets drawn into the stove at any point.

Paul

 
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Post by coalstovelady » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 12:00 pm

Thank you Paul and I completely agree. I made one change this last go-around. I closed or attempted to close the slide beneath my fire box that allows the ask to go into the chute and into the concrete pit. I did notice a difference from Friday when I tried to get the stove going to yesterday Monday after trying to close the slide. On Friday it burned for maybe 1/2 hour to 1 hour if that. Then I tried to close the slide. It did not close completely but a lot and I lit the stove. It burned for about 4 hours but I could see it did not have anywhere close to the draft as in previous years. I also want to say that in previous years it never really closed completely but perhaps a little bit more than now. It is sort of stuck in place. I had talked with my chimney man at great lengths about this slide and he was even going to come to my home and crawl into the concrete pit and block the end with insulation just to run a test on that slide opening. His schedule didn't permit it so I did as best as I could. He said if the issue is that opening before he tackles it which would be very time consuming he wanted to run that test. It is possible I am making some headway. I am upset because in all this time and two separate contractors - the chimney man and the plumber - each working around the chimney and neither ever thought of looking for a block when all this time I would know if there is a chimney block of some sort - well it does upset me. I suppose with all due respect everyone has their area of expertise and purpose but being that I have been complaining about my draft and fire going out I would think a look up the chimney while cleaning the clean out from the basement, and one looking down while repairing some loose bricks from the roof area - it would have been looked at. I can't climb 40 feet ladders so I must rely on others. I'll get back to you and believe me I appreciate your knowledge. Thank you. I see you are in New York and I am in Northeastern Pennsylvania - 'anthracite country'.

 
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Post by coalstovelady » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 12:07 pm

Paul I have been thinking that all along about some time of barametric pressure or something. When the Kewanee was working, it operated by barametric pressure and the colder it was outside, the more heat I got inside. It was really quite amazing. I believe the Kewanee and Beechwood somehow worked as a team. That is why I believe now with the two new furnaces it never lost draft with the Kewanee? I would just be curious to know that for a fact. I believe truly that the original plumber who put this all together during the last century was a genius. I believe that because over the years many people have been here to look at my home, wise people, and they would comment as such about all of the home and its components - and I knew that because I live here and see the perfection. Thank you for trying to help me.

 
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Post by coalstovelady » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 12:13 pm

Tell me more about smoldering string test? And seeing from the other side? And I still don't know what you are referring to with the 'range flues'? Are these flues built into the range and I have not identified them as such?


 
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 3:12 pm

I've been re reading this thread. This caught my attention.
I still think something is sucking my draft from below. In the past there was a tremendous draft and if I didn't move the lids and adjust the draft, the lids would turn red. Now I have very little draft. As I mentioned the ashes drop to the basement concrete pit.
If the basement is now somehow becoming a low pressure area (for whatever reason) then it very well could be stealing draft pressure from your stove thru the opening to the ash pit. What you could do to test this is open a window in the basement to neutralize any sort of pressure difference down there. Then try another coal fire in the kitchen range while that basement window is open.

I'm still trying to figure out how the change of furnaces could effect your draft, it can't be ruled out as coincidence since something else may have changed the dynamics of stack effect in the house.

 
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Post by franco b » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 3:37 pm

That copper water tank next to the stove you mention , must have had pipes going into the fire box. Check to see if those holes were and are still covered. The broiler door is also suspect if not tight.

With a roaring fire with wood you mention that then backs up a bit when you throw the oven damper, would indicate that the oven flue passages that Paul explained might be clogged.

Look for the clean out plates. The stove originally came with a small hoe like tool to reach in there and scrape out any accumulation of ash and creosote. If that has not been cleaned in many years, circulation and efficiency will go down.

With a good wood fire base coal will burn readily only if air is restricted to coming up through the grates. The fact that you have a good wood fire with good draft and the coal fails to burn can only mean that the draft is not pulling through the coal, but from somewhere else.

With a wood fire you can check where air is entering by observing smoke from a cigarette, a lighter or candle flame, or just smoldering piece of string. i like a flame best. Pass that flame or smoke by all seams and doors to see where it draws in.

 
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Post by franco b » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 4:04 pm

If the basement were drawing away draft, i think the wood fire would not burn so well and would tend to smoke into the room.

To see the flue passage for the oven just remove the cook lids on the right. This provides a way to clean the top of the oven as well, but to clean under the oven there has to be access plates.

That heavy iron pipe on the back of the stove is where the gas exits when in oven mode. Look for a clean out plate there, near the bottom too.

 
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 4:25 pm

franco b wrote:
Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 4:04 pm
If the basement were drawing away draft, i think the wood fire would not burn so well and would tend to smoke into the room.
I don't disagree with you Richard. It's just that we know that a wood fire sends a lot of heat up the chimney creating a good draft and the coal fire doesn't quite as much. My thinking is that the wood fire has no problem overcoming the negative pressure of the basement (if there is negative pressure there), but then once coal is added and the chimney draft isn't quite so strong, the negative pressure of the basement might be enough to ultimately starve her fire. Opening a window to the basement would rule this hypothesis out, in my mind anyways. It's a pretty easy test, and one that may have not been thought of by the many people that she's discussed this issue with.

 
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Post by coalstovelady » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 4:50 pm

Lee Lightning and Franco - what excellent information so you can help me.. Thank you. I want to provide more info on this but I'll also need clarification too. Here goes. What does "stack effect" mean? I agree that we can't overlook the coincidence of the furnace change. Also about opening a window in the basement - yesterday I even had my basement 'bilco door' opened for a short time while the kitchen stove upstairs was lit and it had no affect on increasing the draft as I kept checking on it. It was a nice day and I was doing some clean up in the basement so I had that door open for awhile. The Kewanee furnace did operate on barametric pressure - there was nothing electric or mechanical to operate it but me throwing on the coal and a barometric item on the pipe which would open and close with the wind coming down the chimney and that item had a weight on it that moved in that way. I hope I am describing how my furnace worked for your understanding. ...... Now to Franco's information. Yes there are two pipes on the exterior of the stove and opposite them directly inside the firebox I repaired with stove cement that wall inside the firebox. So there are no holes there around the fire brick. What is the "broiler door". Would that be the lower door beneath the over door? I never used it as a broiler if that is what it is. However I keep some baking pans inside and yesterday I did look inside that door as well as the oven door and I carefully examined everything inside both using a flashlight. I saw no imperfections at all. I felt around and everything felt solid. Both the oven door and the lower door which you called a "broiler door" (I think that is what you mean) both doors shut perfectly fine. Now on the "oven flu passages" that you mention and that I should have a small hoe like tool, I will look for it and I believe I have those hoe tools just never knew what they were used for - and where would I look for the "clean out plates" that might be clogged. Would that be that item in the rear of my stove that is closed with two screw-type items on either side but I am afraid to twist them for if they break I would never find a replacement. If we are talking about the same thing, my plumber has used his shop vac and aimed it from the plate section of the stove into that opening which goes across the oven to a handle in the front of the stove that I described in another post and when that is pulled a little smoke wanted to come in so I closed it. That handle is used after the fire is going good and brings in more heat to the oven and I explained its purpose before also. If we are talking about that being clogged, wouldn't my plumber have drawn that up with his powerful shop vac? I'm thinking you mean "clean out plate" as that protrusion in the rear of the stove? (I'm going to try and provide photographs if I follow instructions someone gave to download photos. I'll do that as soon as I finish this note.) You completely understand what I said about the terrific draft that I have with the wood and paper and then the draft dies when I add the coal. It just dies. It does no longer pull through the coal. I will also try and perform that smoke test you describe to see from where it draws. I will use a punk - I don't smoke. Please bear with me. And thank you both very much..

 
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Post by franco b » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 5:42 pm

For now we are only concerned with the coal fire dying while in direct draft and not in the oven position.
The broiler is usually a narrow door on the left end of the stove, on the side, just above the fire. By using a hinged wire grill, with that door open, you can hold some toast, or even a steak just above the fire to cook.

Close off all the normal air inlets and put some paper and kindling in the fire box and light it. It should burn poorly unless it is getting air from another place in the stove. Do the test with your punk smoke to see if the smoke is being drawn in where it is not supposed to be. My suspicion is that the draft is not dying but failing to go through the grates. If the opening to the basement is a concern then seal it with ash or some sand temporarily. Some pictures of the stove would help.

Another way to add pictures is to click on "full editor & prevue". when replying.

Scroll down to where it says "add add attachment" and click on it. that will give a view of your computer. Go to where your pictures are and click on the one you want, or if more than one, hold the shift key and click further pictures, and then click open. When done, click submit.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 5:58 pm

CSL,

The "string theory" of checking stove leaks. :D

Cotton string, or tight yarn, will smolder and produce a very thin, concentrated smoke trail. If you light it, get it burning well and then blow out the flame it will continue to burn, smoldering and produce a thin, concentrated trail of smoke about the size of pencil lead that's easy to see. Don't use any string or yarn with synthetic fibers - doesn't work as well and stinks up the house !!!!!! :oops:

When the smoldering end of the string/yarn is held very close to where there is an air leak into a running stove's flues, that thin, straight, trail of smoke will bend toward, or get sucked into the air leak showing you exactly where the leak is. Mark it with chalk and come back and seal it after your done checking all the seams with refractory cement, such as Hercules brand available at most Lowes.

The flashlight method...... light leaks through stove gaps in seams just like air does. When you shine a bright flashlight at a tiny gap in a stove's seams, then view it from the other side of that same seam, some light can be seen bleeding through on the other side. If there is the slightest gap, .... the seam seems to "glow". ;)

I apologize that my writing isn't more clear, I'll see if I can dig out some pix and post them to better explain the range's flues.

Paul

 
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Post by coalstovelady » Tue. Oct. 17, 2017 6:07 pm

I am attaching 6 photos. As you can see the coal did not burn and went out. The one photo is of the rear item protrusion I speak of that I am afraid to open. Let me know if you see my photos or if you need additional photos of something else on the stove. Thank you.

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