Troubles With Kitchen Coal Stove Draft

 
coalstovelady
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Post by coalstovelady » Sat. Nov. 10, 2018 3:22 pm

Thank you for this information. I appreciate it very much. No I have not cleaned the oven flues or pipe. Yes I use wood to start the fires. This is all so interesting to me because I always compare my past use of the stove with my current situation. I went for about 36 years never cleaning anything. The initial problem began when my Kewanee Furnace went in 2012. I replaced it briefly with an EFM stoker which I did not like the stoker for a number of reasons. Subsequently I converted to natural gas. I'd buy another Kewanee hand fire furnace if they made them but they don't. I was never comfortable with the stoker always worrying if a "clunker of coal" would break the pin on a cold night. I never once had a problem with the Kewanee for 36 years and the owners before me bought it in 1926. I'm getting old now and felt gas would be the best for my circumstances. I loved my Kewanee and I love my kitchen coal stove. I hope I can get hold of Paulie and have him take care of the problem with it. I do know that my chimney is clean because I had some brick work done on it and I have separate flues for the gas and kitchen stove. Thanks for your reply to me. Stay warm.

P.S. I've never been able to start my stove with BBQ charcoal. I did try that at the suggestion of someone a couple years ago before Paulie fixed the part. That could be the reason I couldn't start it with the charcoal. What procedure do I follow with the charcoal if you don't mind explaining? How much do I use and when do I add my anthracite coal to the charcoal. I never even had a charcoal grill outside. ?? Years previously I had a tremendous draft on my stove that if I turned my back the lids could get very red. Often I would tip them as well as slow down the drafts.

 
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freetown fred
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Post by freetown fred » Sat. Nov. 10, 2018 4:22 pm

It has to be the SELF LIGHT type just dump some in & after it's gotten a pretty good red hot base ( I still have some flames) before I SLOWLY start adding coal

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Nov. 10, 2018 6:02 pm

freetown fred wrote:
Sat. Nov. 10, 2018 4:22 pm
It has to be the SELF LIGHT type just dump some in & after it's gotten a pretty good red hot base ( I still have some flames) before I SLOWLY start adding coal
She lights it often, Fred. Match Light charcoal is ok for the one match club, but gets expensive if you have to restart a small firebox often because it can't run for a long time.

I buy the large 18.6 bag twin packs at Lowes $20.00. Best price per pound that I've found for it. Each bag will fill a range firebox six times, so there's a dozen fire starts. Then just the cost of a gallon of kerosene. So about $24.00 in charcoal and kero gives a dozen range-sized firebox starts. Match Light will only give about 8 starts for the same $24.00.

What I do with my kitchen range.
1. Empty ash pan and grates of ashes and dead coal.
2. Put two layers of charcoal to cover the grates. That's about 3 pounds for my range firebox.
3. Drizzle on about a cup of kero over all the charcoal and put the cooktop covers back on.
4. Open the pipe damper, oven damper direct to pipe, and the primary damper down below.
5. Lift the front cooktop cover and light the charcoal.
6. When the kero is burned off and charcoal is glowing, start adding coal evenly over the firebed, but don't bury the firebed in fresh coal.
7. When that layer of coal stops snapping and popping and it's burning, add another layer of coal.
8. Repeat 7. until firebox is full.


Takes me 30 minutes from when I start putting the BBQ charcoal in until I have a full firebox burning and I can set the range's dampers to normal operation for heating and cooking.

Paul


 
coalstovelady
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Post by coalstovelady » Sat. Nov. 10, 2018 8:15 pm

My firebox front to back is 14" front to back and 8" across. I get a bundle of hard wood of which I use two or three pieces plus maybe 5 or 6 kindling sticks. Now of course I could use a little longer hard wood but setting it inside at a diagonal. I start with newspaper crumpled up. Once the wood starts burning good I start adding the coal. I've been using a nice size pea. I had purchased a ton of nut delivered but it really is too big. Paulie confirmed that. So the last time I went directly to the coal breaker and picked out the size I wanted rather than order by phone. I open the side lower draft full. That is really how I have always started my fires. I never ever had a problem with draft until I had that trouble with the draft and Paulie found the cracked item and patched it with stove cement until he can get me a new part. Paulie also cleaned my stove and all the flues which I never knew I had. I mentioned earlier that I have not cleaned anything but that is partially correct. I do use a shop vac when the stove is cold on the inside top of all my lids across the stove front to back. I have sucked up a few tiles which line the inside but salvaged most of them from inside the shop vac and laid them back in. They are little square tiles. ... I honestly would be afraid to use kerosene to start my stove not that I don't appreciate your suggestion and explanation. I do appreciate all you tell me. I just would have a fear to do that. I exercise great caution in everything that I do. For those of you who don't know or haven't read all my posts, I also have a slide beneath the fire box which I dump my ashes when cold into a concrete pit. I shovel and remove them once a year. That's all that is necessary for me to remove the ashes inside my kitchen. Sometimes when I dump the ash after the stove is cold, my slide gets stuck so I spend some time getting it to move back and forth if some ash gets in way of the slide. I will even put the hose of the shop vac and suck that up so it glides better. It never totally shuts. (It's always been like this and there was a time I had better access to it from beneath the floor, but I have a new furnace, no longer an insulated Kewanee that was taller than I am and I could lie on top of it, take the pipe out and clean it from that vantage point if it jammed but that's history and not possible now.) While I am vacuuming from the top of the slide I don't want the grates to close on my arm. I wouldn't be able to get out. I'm very careful in what I do. Inside my fire box my fire brick at the sides could be replaced. When I moved here 42 years ago I actually undertook that and replaced the fire brick myself sizing them with a hammer and chisel.. I did a lot in my youth. I wouldn't tackle it now. Paulie and I talked about that also and he makes fire brick but you probably know this if you know Paulie. So someday he will replace the fire brick sides for me. Front and back are in excellent shape and are fan-shaped. The sides are just basic flat fire brick. So there might be some draft compromise from the worn fire brick I suspect. ... One of you mentioned the "pipe damper". I don't have that but do have one built into my stove pipe. It works when open to cool down the draft. When shut it allows full draft up the pipe. Hoping my explanations make sense to you. It's been nice chatting again. Time for me to wind down for the evening. Thanks for the discussion. Keep in touch.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Nov. 10, 2018 9:03 pm

The damper you mention that is "built into the stove pipe", that lets air in to cool down the exhaust, is called a "check damper". Many antique stoves and ranges have one. It's only used to cool off and slow a too-strong drafting chimney system - otherwise it's not used.

A pipe damper is the preferred way to control the exhaust.

The "pipe damper" - that many on here call an "MPD" or "Manual Pipe Damper", is placed inside the stove pipe. It's used to restrict the exhaust flow to slow it down and give the exhaust more time to transfer to the room and cooking surfaces. It is one of the important methods to help control stove temperatures. Think of the MPD like a brake on a car and the primary damper is the gas pedal. By knowing how and when to use both you have much better control of the car's speed.

I mentioned the pipe damper (MPD) because when starting, or refueling a stove, it must be fully opened. But since you say you don't have one, then ignore that part of what I listed for start up with charcoal. although it would be a good idea to install an MPD because it will help extend the overnight burn times and save on coal day and night. Without having an MPD, you may not realize that lots of the stove's heat is being wasted up the chimney.

If Paulie comes back again, MPD plates are not expansive, you might want to ask him to install one. It only take a few minutes and a 1/4 inch drill bit. My range's fire box is about the same size as yours. With the primary dampers open only a sliver and the MPD closed (it has holes in it so it can't close off the pipe completely) my range will easily burn for 12 hours on a load of nut coal and when I wake up, it still has a strong firebed to cook breakfast with to refuel and clear the night's ashes quickly.


BTW, I used wood for many years to start my range before I discovered how much less prep and faster it was starting using charcoal and kerosene. I also used just wood in the not-so-cold months for a few years until I got tired of the work, mess, how dry or wet, and space the wood took up. So I understand what it's like to run and cook with a range using just wood.

Paul

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Nov. 11, 2018 12:48 am

If you want to startup with charcoal, here ya go, pix of my range using just plain Kingsford BBQ charcoal and kerosene.

First pic is the charcoal poured into the firebox so that it's two briquettes deep and covering the grate bars. Takes about as long to do that as it was to type these two sentences with one finger. :D

Second pic is the cup of drizzled-on kerosene burning nice and hot. Kerosene is one of the hottest burning fuels so it gets the charcoal going very quickly. Within about 5 minutes the first layer of coal can be spread out over the charcoal, but don't bury the fire with fresh coal. Again, the kero burning so hot also helps get the coal going sooner. As each successive layer of coal adds it's heat volume to the firebed, the next layer of coal can be put on that much sooner than the previous layers.

Third pic is the firebox 30 minutes after starting - filled, burning well, and ready to set the dampers to normal operating positions.

Paul

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coalstovelady
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Post by coalstovelady » Sun. Nov. 11, 2018 7:33 am

Paul, I appreciate so much the photos and your explanations of the pipe damper and the kerosene. Your fire looks beautiful. My fire always looked like that before all these troubles. I never needed pipe dampers, kerosene, or anything. I get very frustrated. I can't understand why my stove changed. I suppose I want answers why? The stove has burned for 100 years the way it is. I hate change. My doctor wants to increase my HBP meds and I have resisted for over a year. So I take my pressure several times a day but when I go to his office it's high. He scares me. Change scares me. I need to get a life and I suppose I need to try new things. I'm a lot older than you are. Change is not easy but I will have a thorough discussion with Paulie when we get together. Thank you so much. I remember as a young girl living home with my folks, everyone had coal. I remember taking our neighbors out on the porch, everyone coming around, as they had coal gas in the house but they survived. I know what that damper looks like and throughout this whole ordeal, I even went out and bought one. They are a couple dollars. I couldn't bring myself to have it installed. I'm pretty sure I had shown it to Paulie when he was here and he didn't find it necessary. After he temporarily fixed my part, I had the tremendous draft, the hot lids, everything was back to normal - but now it isn't again. I think it needs Paulie's attention! Maybe the refractory cement melted or something and the part is cracked again? If I could find the part, I would put it on myself but I don't remember where he showed me the part or how to get to it. I also think my fire brick needs attention. Forgive me for being scared and frustrated. I love how beautiful your fire is burning. I want that again! Aren't you afraid that the kerosene would explode?

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Nov. 11, 2018 8:46 am

I understand. Whatever works for you for starting the fire.

I've used both methods for a long time and I prefer the charcoal/kero now. No need of the mess and space taken up storing kindling. Charcoal is fast and it doesn't soot up the mica windows of my parlor stove, or the mica windows I put in my range's secondary damper openings.

I would strongly recommend you consider installing a pipe damper (MPD). I can assure you from many years experience using a coal range nine months of the year as our only cooking stove, that it is necessary with a kitchen range. I know quite a few folks who also have and use, or grew up using coal ranges, that would consider not having an MPD as it missing an important piece of the range system. Your the first one I've ever heard of not having an MPD with a range. And, everything I've read about using these old ranges includes the MPD as one of the important controls for cooking/baking.

The MPD helps hold back heat to get the stove and oven temps high when needed while using less fuel to do that. In the old books on operating a range it's one of the things to use when oven temps aren't getting as high as they should. And when just using the range for heating the house, a MPD will extend the burn times of a firebox load of coal through the night, or a long work day, thus saving on the cost of fuel or having to relight the stove every morning.

Example,........
When I fill the firebox, shake ashes, and set the primary damper for the night, but if I forget and leave my MPD wide open all night (same as your stove pipe not having an MPD), I'll be coming down in the morning to a cold stove, kitchen, and tea kettle,.... and not happy !!! :cry:

If I set the stove up the same way for the night and close the MPD,.... up to 12 hours later, I come down to a warm kitchen, the cooktop is around 600F ready to cook breakfast, and the full tea kettle is just a few degrees below boiling. Then I'm less cranky. :D

As for coal gas smell in the house, there are other reasons for that with a range and the MPD is not the cause, just a symptom. One is the cook top plates are warped, and/or, cracked from over firing the range. My range was that way when I got it because the previous owner over fired it warped the top plates using it as a wood heating stove. I replaced the top plates and no more gas smell. Another way is not reducing the primary air damper opening when reducing the MPD opening.

Here's some pix of a cast iron MPD plate, and looking down inside a stove pipe at the same MPD installed. You can see that it has a row of holes in the middle and that around the edges it leaves quite a gap so that it can't completely close off the pipe. That's done for safety sake so that you can't back up the exhaust into the house. When fully closed it can only partially reduce and slow the exhaust flow. But in so doing it helps keep heat inside the house and not let it go racing up the chimney, so that the fire burns longer and thus saves fuel.

Paul

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coalstovelady
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Post by coalstovelady » Sun. Nov. 11, 2018 5:07 pm

Paul, You are so kind to take photos and explain all of this to me. I don't doubt what you say about the MPD. What I question is why after 36 years do I need it when I never did? It bothers me that something changed and I don't know what it is. The previous owner of my home had this stove and that was all she used from 1926 until her death and I bought the home in 1977 from her daughter. There was a caretaker here that kept the stove going in the interim before my purchase. I used it in the same way all those years. It was only about 2012 that I started to have the draft issue and that was when my Kewanee Furnace broke. There was never an MPD on the pipe with the prior owner or with me all those years. I had an uncle while growing up who had a coal stove and he had one of those dampers on his pipe. I remember it. My mother had a coal stove while I was growing up but I don't recall if she had a damper or not as I was too young to pay attention to that.. I'm familiar with the item and even purchased one throughout this ordeal. I just don't want to install it until I get to the bottom of why? It would mean learning a whole new system and I'm too old to change my way of doing things now. I might forget something if I change the routine.

Also, after Paulie temporarily fixed my part and cleaned my stove, believe me, he made my lids turn red just to show me they could get red. And I don't recall now how hot Paulie got my oven temperature but he got it very hot. But now again I don't have that same strong draft as in the past. And the stove goes out. Therefore I think the part needs to be replaced along with the firebrick sides, and as you say - cleaned again. Also I forgot to mention that previously my kitchen coal stove never went out unless I let it go out. It would burn for days when I was home to take care of it. Sure there were a # of years that I didn't use the stove regularly because I worked long hours and didn't have time to even cook when I returned home from work. I ate out. But I was always home mornings and nights to tend to the Kewanee Furnace. That would burn for several days if I loaded it up but honestly I almost never left my home more than the day and slept in my own bed at day's end. My coal stove seems to be a mystery again and it frustrates me.

I appreciate all that you tell me so don't think you are wasting your time. Please know that I want answers. I enjoy all your knowledge. Thank you.

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