Troubles With Kitchen Coal Stove Draft

 
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Pauliewog
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Post by Pauliewog » Sat. Nov. 18, 2017 12:51 am

CSL, It's nice to hear things are going well and you are getting your wings back. :D

Don't be afraid to use your ash dump. There is enough capacity above the slide gate to hold two or three days worth.

If you are still concerned with the ash dump pipe in the basement blocking up, I can make you a small square steel hopper that will attach to the ceiling joists. The hopper bottom would have a funnel transition that will adapt to the round pipe going down to the ash bin. On the side we can put a clean out door that will give you access to the slide gate and the pipe to the ash bin.

Did you bake anything in your oven yet ? :D

Paulie


 
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Hambden Bob
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Post by Hambden Bob » Sat. Nov. 18, 2017 9:00 am

Good Call on that question,Wogs !

Inquiring Minds,and Fat Chow Hounds such as myself need to know ! CSL,how 'bout starting this answer off with a nice,easy Cornbread !!!

 
coalstovelady
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Post by coalstovelady » Sat. Nov. 18, 2017 6:58 pm

Hello friends. I'm taking things slow. No baking for now. Paulie and I chatted by phone today. It's a pleasure discussing things with him. He is so knowledgeable. I built a fire in the coal stove while we talked by phone. It's burning beautifully. ..... (Paulie, I just read your post above. I'm not afraid that my ashes will clog in the ash dump pipe. Perhaps I was not clear on that. The clog always occurred right at the slide area because it didn't open wide enough, which then required me to go to the basement from the bottom up with the poker and if you can visualize that, when I unclogged the jam, the ashes would fall on my head! Then I would have to spend time and effort putting all the pipes back together that make the chute and clean up the mess. That is why my plumber nailed everything together. Now that you fixed the slide and it opens and closes, if it doesn't get stuck, I should be in good shape. For the time being I admit I am being extra careful with everything. That is why I have been letting the fire go out and shovel the ash directly from the fire box in the kitchen. I'm just so happy to have my stove burning again I'm walking on eggs so not to disturb anything. I'm sure I will get my confidence back shortly.) ..... I'm trying to get caught up on projects that seemed to get backed up. I thought I would put several Christmas Trees in the Courtyard and one on the front porch this year. I spent the afternoon trying to get the lights to work on the largest of the trees. I gave up. It was almost like Chevy Chase Christmas Vacation!!! They just wouldn't light. I tore them all off and I'll start fresh tomorrow. I don't like the short days. It seems to get dark around 5 p.m. The good thing about this time of the year now again is I have my toasty warm kitchen coal stove working and I don't need to drive anywhere in the dark. Yay! I'll talk again soon.

 
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Post by coalstovelady » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 10:08 am

I let the stove go out overnight so that I could manually remove the ash. The ash that was raked into the 'holding zone' was filling beneath the grates so I used the slide. OMG - it is soooo perfect! Paulie thank you so very very much. It has never glided so smoothly. The ash that was in my fire box wasn't great. As my memory serves me, (let me describe in my own words) the ash used to be pulverized almost like powder. The same held true with my Kewanee ash. Not so now. I had been hearing about different grades of coal over the years and I think now I can see the difference. It won't be a problem because I don't mind going through a little effort to manually remove my ash to avoid any jams and then re-start the coal stove. It's giving me a lot of practice and good experience. I have a whole new ton to burn of the same quality. It burns very nice and it is warm and toasty, just the ash seems different with larger ash chunks. The ash could also be this way because I am using a larger size coal than before. My friend who used to leave boxes of scrap wood for me to use as kindling passed away. He was a carpenter and a dear friend. He is sorely missed. ... Question: While I was using the EFM stoker I purchased little bags of 'starter' for the rice coal. I don't know what was in those bags but they worked for the stoker. I have a few of those left over and wondering if they could be used to start a coal stove? I never use anything strange if I don't know for sure??? My chimneys are clean and clear and I want them to stay that way. It looks like a nice bright sunny day today. Likely I will spend more time getting my Christmas tree lights on the trees for outside. I hope everyone has a great day.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 10:19 am

You can use real wood lump charcoal as a first layer...
Cowboy brand is what we have in the big box stores...
A single starter may not do the trick for your stove...

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 11:35 am

Yes, you can use any charcoal to start a coal range. In fact I find it easier and quicker than using wood.

I stopped using wood to start the range a few years ago. I cover the grates with a layer of charcoal. Drizzle on some kerosene, then put a small wad of paper on top and light it with a long-reach gas BBQ lighter.

I use kerosene based on William's suggestion, and because it's much cheaper than BBQ lighter fluid, or the pre- treated "Match light" charcoal.

You can use "match light" charcoal, but beware,..... I bought a bag of Match Light to try. It was well after the BBQ season and the lighter fluid in it had dried out through the paper bag so much it would not light.

Yes, the larger coal sizes will have larger chunks of ash. But, that's not a problem because that's the size ranges were designed to use. If you look at the size of the gaps in the grate teeth you'd see that most ranges were designed to use nut, or stove coal. And much of the range literature from the manufacturers that survives says to use nut, or stove size.

Ash from that size coal will not be a problem if the big chunks are broken up every morning when the overnight ash bed is at it's deepest. When the ash bed is deep that's the time to rotate the grates. That not only breaks up those big pieces of ash, it turns the grates daily so that not just one side gets all the heat stress that will eventually warp the grate bars.

By daily breaking up those big pieces of ash while they are still crumbly, that can easily be dumped during shaking before they grow into hard clinkers that the grates can't break up. Then they just start to fill up the bottom of the firebox and slowly reduce the heat volume and length of burn time that the firebox is capable of.

For anyone who has not run one, ranges are NOT like heating stoves. While it may seem they share alot, the main difference is that the ranges much smaller sized fireboxes, coupled with a large-for-their-size stove pipe, are not as forgiving of tending technique as heating stoves with bigger fireboxes/firepots.

The smaller fireboxes on ranges can be trickier and less forgiving of refueling/ash clearing sequence than heating stoves. Do it in the wrong sequence and the fire will stall. BTW, for anyone trying to help with this, who has never run a range, what works for your bigger firebox stove in a different sequence very likely would not work for a range.

Here's what does work for ranges. This is based on my 13 years of, nine months a year, using just a range to do all cooking/baking and heating the back half of my old 17 room Victorian house.

First thing each morning I open the pipe damper (MPD), put the oven damper in direct draft (not heating the oven), and crack the primary damper open about half way. Then, I feed the cat while I let the fire build up for a couple of minutes to create a "heat bank" - a lot of heat volume that is really warming the chimney system up so that it will get, and keep, a strong draft going throughout the refueling and ash clearing sequence.

Only after the fire is going well and heated the chimney system, then will I put on a fresh layer of coal and let that get going for several minutes.

FYI, for those who've never run a range. If the first step is to put fresh coal on, that blast of such a big proportion of cold air and coal going into such a small firebox will stall the draft and take faaaaarrrrr longer to get the fire going.

Ok, after a few minutes to let the first layer of coal stop snapping and get burning well, I rotate the grates one flat surface to break up and dump the larger clumps of burned coal before they can harden up into clinkers.

With triangular grates, that would be 120 degree turn of the shaker handle. For two-sides grates that would be 180 degree turn of the handle.

Then, using VERY short, choppy strokes, I shake the grates until I see small embers dropping and there is an even orange glow thought out the ash pan. With the rectangular fireboxes of ranges you often have to poke up in the corners to clear them better. That's why many ranges came with a right-angle tipped fire poker to reach up from the ash drawer area through the grate teeth.

Now finish building up the firebed to the top of the firebox liner. Don't overfill, or the top plates will be running too hot with the more open daytime/cooking damper settings.

So to sum up for range firebox tending.
1. Open the dampers and get the chimney system HOT !
2. Put on one layer of coal and don't bury the fire. Let that layer getting burning well to keep the chimney HOT !
3. Rotate the grate bars one surface.
4. Then you can shake and clear ash.
5. Finish building up the firebox in layers that still allow flames to come up through each layer to ignite the volatile gases being cooked out of the fresh coal.

Paul

 
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Post by coalstovelady » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 9:12 pm

Paul, Thank you. Your grates must be different from mine as I have never in 40 years rotated my grates. If I did it would drop everything. I do the very short choppy strokes until I see the embers dropping, then I add the coal. I open the draft fully beneath the fire box. Now that my draft has returned since Paulie's cleaning and repair, my stove seems to be cooperating with me like old times. I've just been afraid to drop too much of the large ash as I don't want issues with the slide again which I believe was a major issue with the draft. The slide would not shut. Paulie cleaned the slide and it is working fine now. I'll find kindling somewhere. I prefer to use wood. I have tried charcoal at the suggestion of another friend. It didn't seem to work for me but of course that was during the period that I was losing draft. I even used a blow torch. It might be called something other than blow torch? Acetylene torch? My plumber showed me the item and I bought one. Maybe I'll treat myself to an early Christmas gift from LLBean and get some of their special kindling. (smiling) ..... Thanks for confirming that the larger coal will have larger chunks of ash. I was not sure since I previously used a mix of nut and pea. Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful explanation of everything. Enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday everyone and please keep in touch.


 
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 9:52 pm

CSL, as I was reading Sunnyboys post,i too noticed that he forgot how your grates look,but did not post because i don't have a coal range.
I always used kindling ,along with cardboard & paper to light my coal stove ,until this yr. I had read how Lightning started his stove with just charcoal. So i picked up a small bag,about 5# ,i think. I dumped the entire bag into my stove which holds about 40# of coal.My long reach lighter was weak,so i dumped some lamp oil on top of a few pieces of charcoal & then lit it.I then sprinkled some coal on top & just kept doing that every 10 minutes or so. It did make the whole process easier & no wood smoke stains on the door glass on my stove.

 
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Post by franco b » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 10:05 pm

Use kerosene only with a cold stove when starting a fire. Kerosene thrown on a weak fire will explode.

 
coalstovelady
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Post by coalstovelady » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 10:12 pm

Franco, thank you. I thought that could happen. I guess that is why I stick with the basics - paper, some kindling wood, then add the coal. A good stove working properly should start right up. That was how I knew I had a problem. It's working fine now. (smiling)

 
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 10:25 pm

franco b wrote:
Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 10:05 pm
Use kerosene only with a cold stove when starting a fire. Kerosene thrown on a weak fire will explode.
Franco,that is very good advice. That could save someones life or at least some of their skin.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 10:42 pm

coalstovelady wrote:
Mon. Nov. 20, 2017 9:12 pm
Paul, Thank you. Your grates must be different from mine as I have never in 40 years rotated my grates. If I did it would drop everything. I do the very short choppy strokes until I see the embers dropping, then I add the coal. I open the draft fully beneath the fire box. Now that my draft has returned since Paulie's cleaning and repair, my stove seems to be cooperating with me like old times. I've just been afraid to drop too much of the large ash as I don't want issues with the slide again which I believe was a major issue with the draft. The slide would not shut. Paulie cleaned the slide and it is working fine now. I'll find kindling somewhere. I prefer to use wood. I have tried charcoal at the suggestion of another friend. It didn't seem to work for me but of course that was during the period that I was losing draft. I even used a blow torch. It might be called something other than blow torch? Acetylene torch? My plumber showed me the item and I bought one. Maybe I'll treat myself to an early Christmas gift from LLBean and get some of their special kindling. (smiling) ..... Thanks for confirming that the larger coal will have larger chunks of ash. I was not sure since I previously used a mix of nut and pea. Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful explanation of everything. Enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday everyone and please keep in touch.
CSL,
Yes, the design of your grates are one of the exceptions to daily rotating. I should have clarified that I wrote that not just for your stove. We have other range owners who follow these threads. And some non-range owners that want to help but aren't aware what affect the firebox size can have when trying to help solve draft problems.

Could it have been a propane, or "MAPP gas" torch ? The tank is about the size of a quart glass milk bottle. You can get those torch kits at any hardware store, or the tool departments of any Lowes, or Home Depot.

If the tank was about the size of a scuba tank, then it likely was a Presto-light torch, that many plumbers use. That'll be much more expensive and sort of overkill for lighting a fire box.


Wood, or charcoal either is fine. I used wood kindling for many years. But now I'm spoiled. I prefer the charcoal because starting with an empty firebox I can have a full firebed going in 30-35 minutes. With wood, I'd be reaching for the lighter after just finishing up gather and building the kindling pile in that time. And a bag of charcoal takes up much less space in my shed, and with less mess, than the boxes of kindling.

And thank you Franco. I should have mentioned to never add any flammable liquids after a fire has been started.

As you know, using the mix of pea and nut will burn, but it will make the fire sluggish to respond when tending or needing to boost stove temps for cooking. Plus, it will ash-clog sooner, thus compounding the sluggish problem. Now that you see how well the range does on nut coal, you might want to consider sticking with just using that size and sell, or swap the pea/nut mix to someone with a stove that can better handle it.

Paul

 
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Pauliewog
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Post by Pauliewog » Tue. Nov. 21, 2017 12:06 am

Paul, here are some pictures of the Dockash style dump grates in CSL's range.

Paulie

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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Nov. 21, 2017 12:48 am

Thanks Paulie. CSL has already posted pix of her spare grate in this thread, so I'm aware of what they are.

BTW those are not dock ash grates in CSL's range. While they can look similar, dock ash are two sided and meant to be rotated in use.

Randy's (Photog2000) beautiful Clarian range has dock ash grates. They've been discussed in the Cookin' With Coal thread.

Here's some pix of dock ash grates. They are number fire in the GW grate listing. Plus a copy of the Clarion instruction sheet on how to rotate them.

Paul

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Clarion Dockash grate info.jpg
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Pauliewog
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Post by Pauliewog » Tue. Nov. 21, 2017 1:12 am

While checking out the chimney in the basement, I got to take a good look at the hand fired Kewanee but forgot to take some pictures to post.

With the exception of the boiler tubes leaking and a bit of rust on the lower portion of the skin, this furnace is not only a real bear but is in really nice shape.

Over 30 years ago I cut up and removed a similar sized Kewanee for a customer who switched to gas for convenience reasons, and was used to heat a 5,000 sf commercial building.

I recall helping a local contractor replace 2 tubes that were leaking the last winter it was being used and his comment that it was good for another 50 years.

As I remember, the worst part of the job was draining down the boiler and flushing it out. The tubes were not welded in, I think he had a setup similar to the old tail pipe expansion tool that we placed inside the end of the tube and torqued down.

Not sure if replacement tubes are still available, or who may even have a swedge tool.

Tell you this, if it were in my home, even if I had to build a new boiler tank...... The Kewanee
(H**l or High Water) would again be the primary heat. :lol:

Paulie


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