New Manufacture of Antique Stoves

 
scalabro
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Post by scalabro » Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 12:12 pm

Let's list legal / manufacturer liability reasons why they are no longer produced.

We know it would be extremely cost prohibitive, but I'm interested in why they won't pass lab cert. muster. I'm convinced they would not as originally manufactured but opinions here seem to vary :D

Let the flames begin...


 
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windyhill4.2
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 3:22 pm

Cast iron bases & legs can crack if something hits them which can cause the stove to fall over,not a safe thing when the fire is burning.

Many of the newer welded stoves could be dropped out a 3rd story window,carried into the lower floor,hooked up to the chimney & be heating the house shortly thereafter.

NOT PICKING ON ANTIQUES,JUST SAYING. :out: :)

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 3:57 pm

been there done this, 2 yrs. ago.

find and publish a copy of the UL 1482. every bit of which ( except clearance distances ) is total nonsense, then make a call to a testing lab. and get a quote to carry out the certification.

be aware that even if you pass the cert. is non transferable. if you change the unit, even by an obvious improvement, you'll have to fulfill the testing again. the same for any and all other models you may wish to build, each one must be tested.

cert. testing is TERRIBLY expensive for just one model as it is. you have to then calculate that expense into the sales cost of the number of units you hope to ever sell and starting up a new stove biz of any sort begins to look alot like trying to open a new coal mine :(

windy's comments are very accurate. the problems of multi piece ( sectional ) hand fastened cast parts can only be overcome by doing a stove of all milled to fit steel.

you CAN build a stove that will function like an early stove but it's not going to have nearly the same visual appeal.

imho, the real ball buster in the whole thing is the cost of certification. for the number of units we could ever talk about the market simply won't support it's recovery, or You, Paulie and I would already be doin' it.

until there is enough need ( interest ) to make a grey market venture worth while that's just the way it is.

i'll go back into the "box stove...adventure" thread and try to find all the stuff about this that I shared at that time.

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 4:54 pm

i found this comment and set of quoates from the box stove thread. at the time I was fully embroiled in the whole UL 1482 compliance issue and none to impressed with what a racket it is.

it would be a good study to search out the beginings and reasons for the existance of that orginization. it ain't pretty.

still the same old song and dance. huge up front expense, no foreseeable return.

Box Stove to Base Heater Conversion Adventure

 
scalabro
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Post by scalabro » Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 6:02 pm

Thank you Steve!!!

Windy, your input is always appreciated, and I agree.

 
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blrman07
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Post by blrman07 » Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 9:32 pm

So from what I am undertanding it's not that it won't pass code inspections, it is so expensive that it's not worthwhile?

 
KingCoal
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Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
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Post by KingCoal » Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 9:52 pm

blrman07 wrote:So from what I am undertanding it's not that it won't pass code inspections, it is so expensive that it's not worthwhile?
Rev. Larry, I was just about to post a link about the UL 1482 and the tests involved.

one of them is the "drop test" in which the stove is dropped 10 times from a height of one inch. I am very sure that most of the original stoves with cast base rings, legs etc. would not endure that.

there are 3 fire tests, a door glass and a stove pipe to thimble test.

we need to be sure which "codes" we are talking about as well. there is EPA code, doesn't apply to coal only units , new or old. there is the UL code, intended to protect insurance industry premium payment investments from erosion by loss payments. and there are building code, focused mostly on clearances and proper combustible protections.

all the old stoves can certainly pass the building code requirements.

getting a UL cert. is unimaginably expensive yes.

here's a good read, it's laborious but needs strict attention and not just a skimming

http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8f59p27j&chunk.id=d0e2550&toc.id=d0e2550&brand=ucpress

PS, if anyone can find the full 61 page UL 1482 code please post a link.

thanks,
steve


 
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mntbugy
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Post by mntbugy » Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 10:41 pm

http://tinyurl.com/2n886v
try this site solid fuel appliances drop down left side of screen
played with this 144 pages and free lots of drop down windows. Other places on net 170.00 Bucks
SHHHH found @hearth.com

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Thu. Jan. 19, 2017 5:24 am

yep, that's the same site that I linked to. I do ok with diggin stuff up online but I find that site difficult at best and have yet to find the actual code itself. just commentary about it and UL practices in general.

thanks,
steve

 
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blrman07
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Post by blrman07 » Thu. Jan. 19, 2017 5:55 am

Ok so my problem with this is the use of the word "codes."

UL is not a code society. THey are a testing society that allows manufacturers to use their UL tested labels on their products. A code society is like NFPA that are adopted by municipalities. A municipality may say that only stoves installed to NFPA standards may be used in their jurisdiction with or without UL certification. Almost every municipality that I have dealt with has UL certification exemptions for "grandfathered" stoves. No matter if they have UL labels on them or not they still have to be installed and operated in accordance with NFPA code standards.

UL certification is not a code. It is a series of tests that are run by the independent testing lab to see if the product performs as the manufacturer says it will. That is what they are certifying. If the product performs like the manufacturer says it will.

Anything can be built to comply with lax or rigid testing standards. It just boils down to how much do you want to spend?

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Thu. Jan. 19, 2017 7:32 am

blrman07 wrote:Ok so my problem with this is the use of the word "codes."

UL is not a code society. THey are a testing society that allows manufacturers to use their UL tested labels on their products. A code society is like NFPA that are adopted by municipalities. A municipality may say that only stoves installed to NFPA standards may be used in their jurisdiction with or without UL certification. Almost every municipality that I have dealt with has UL certification exemptions for "grandfathered" stoves. No matter if they have UL labels on them or not they still have to be installed and operated in accordance with NFPA code standards.

UL certification is not a code. It is a series of tests that are run by the independent testing lab to see if the product performs as the manufacturer says it will. That is what they are certifying. If the product performs like the manufacturer says it will.

Anything can be built to comply with lax or rigid testing standards. It just boils down to how much do you want to spend?
i agree with that entirely and is what I was trying to get at. just what are we talking about and how does it affect the production and use of new OR old stoves.

you can install most any stove to NFPA, BOCA etc. etc. regulations and satisfy city / county inspectors.

what I thought was in question was if the old stoves could survive the UL cert. testing and be tagged as such to satisfy home insurance companies. some might, others won't. in any case, when I still had a copy of the UL testing regulation, it was obvious to me that the fire tests alone would destroy the test subject or atleast render it inoperable.

not something very many "antique" owners will do in order to use the next stove of the same type they buy. same with a guy or few guys that want to start offering a newly constructed stove that will have a small unit run. you are going to sacrifice the first one.

i'm still diggin thru my 'puter to try to find the regs. it took weeks of searching to find it online and copy it. I could just buy a copy from UL but I ain't gonna.

i am admittedly an outlier in all this stuff since I do exactly what I want and accept the consequences what ever they are.

i didn't say anything to the city that I was installing a solid fuel heater, nor did I inform my insurer. if my house burns down because of a failure of a new stove or one of my own creations i'm using it's on me and i'm OK with that.

i ran off the guy the natural gas provider sent over to find out why my gas bill had gone from the former owners $375 per month on budget billing to $25 for hot water. he tried to tell me "you can't do that" I told him "i have and don't come back".

strangely, haven't heard from them since.
Last edited by KingCoal on Thu. Jan. 19, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Canaan coal man
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Post by Canaan coal man » Thu. Jan. 19, 2017 9:32 am

If the grater public only new the true benefits of a antique stove, there would be a base chamber on every hitzer, and cubbys would have suspended pots....... :D What I would give to go back in time for a few days and tour the stove factory show rooms. I always am having this conversation with myself as I drive by old colonials and Victorians and even little stone foundation bungalows and capes. 100 years ago how many oh them had a glenwood or crawford or andes sitting in the basement or living area just glowing away. ;)

 
KingCoal
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Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Post by KingCoal » Thu. Jan. 19, 2017 9:54 am

Canaan coal man wrote:If the grater public only new the true benefits of a antique stove, there would be a base chamber on every hitzer, and cubbys would have suspended pots....... :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:

you better put down the beer and pick up a gun, cause you may have just started the latest skirmish over coal.

 
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Canaan coal man
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Post by Canaan coal man » Thu. Jan. 19, 2017 10:35 am

oh boy :shock:

 
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tcalo
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Post by tcalo » Thu. Jan. 19, 2017 10:43 am

windyhill4.2 wrote:Cast iron bases & legs can crack if something hits them which can cause the stove to fall over,not a safe thing when the fire is burning.
Chubby's have cast iron legs...that may be the exception to most modern stoves though.
Canaan coal man wrote:cubbys would have suspended pots....... :D
They do...in a sense.


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