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joeq
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Post by joeq » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 8:43 am

Hey Mikey, sorry I missed all the excitement with your new Sparkle. I wasn't notified of your continuation, and missed the best parts of all your discussions. Just found you today. Sorry to hear of your set-back with the low performance fire. Let me ask you this. Is your Vigilant still around? Up and running? I would keep an eye on her, cause she may be super jealous of the Sparkle, and is throwing a wrench in the works. I've had similar problems with cars, when I'm getting ready to swap plates from an existing automobile, to a newly acquired one, the primary vehicle that had given reliable service for years, will break down, just as the replacement vehicle is being prepped for service. Has happened on many occasions. Don't know if it's Karma or what, but has happened way too often to be coincidental.
When I 1st got my 111 up and running, you may remember I had problems trying to get any heat out of it, and to this day I still believe it was the Kimmel stove coal I was running. People would tell me it was just a setting problem, and not the coal itself, but on 3 occassions, when dumping the Kimmel, and replacing with Scotts Blaschack he provided me with, the stove would begin to pump out heat. I can't explain it, but that's what I witnessed. Not saying you have bad coal in your stove, just throwing something else in the mix. I'm sure you'll have it ironed out soon, and good job getting her together and running. She looks really good, and you gut her up and running just in time for the new season. Will be a fun ride, and we look fwd to your progress reports. Now, get back to basting that turkey. :yes: (Oh yeah..."HAPPY THANKSGIVING" Mike. And to all our members)
(TOTP!? Perfect)


 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 8:04 pm

freetown fred wrote:
Tue. Nov. 21, 2017 9:09 am
I remember back when--I used to tell newbies that heating with coal was not "Rocket Science" BUT--Paul, you, Larry & Lee have disproved that on SO MANY levels! I stand corrected!! :clap: :lol:
I'm going to plaque this post and hang it in my stove room.

 
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michaelanthony
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Post by michaelanthony » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 8:07 pm

Thanks joeq, and a Happy Thanksgiving.
I checked and tightened every fastener at least twice. Been on my stomach with a mirror, light, and a gun loaded with furnace cement. Poked, stirred, shaken, knifed, changed size and brands of coal. I covered 2 of the check damper windows with rectangle shaped metal with a bead of cement around the edges.
The stove would run great with 10 lbs of coal in her then things would take a bad turn and the fire would slowly die. Direct mode or base mode, 'nut or stove size or a mix would all do the same thing.
The coal had a dark maroon/black color when I would dump the load, (many times the last few days), and I was ready to hook up the box stove :x
The spent coal reminded me of my early days trying to light a coal fire :lol: I knew I had a draft issue regardless of my manometer, the stove was dying and I had to find the reason before I threw in the towel.
I came up from the basement and made a coffee and told the wife "I give" and sat down to think, or not think.
I questioned the back pipe...the outlet is approx. 6 inches lower than the barrel/pipe connector which houses the damper for direct or base mode. I put the stove in base mode with a dying fire and when I came back 30 minutes later the stove was waking up, so that told me it wasn't breathing well in direct.
Since I have a hard time throwing crap away I had some pieces of pipe and an old T so I tried an experiment and it seems to be working.
Keep in mind some of this is temp but the principle remains, new parts will be there soon.
IMG_20171123_163641657.jpg
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My Sparkle has dual exhaust!
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It like both sizes of coal now
I'll be back with some numbers, the stove has been running for an hour...

 
franco b
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Post by franco b » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 8:24 pm

Well, you are a dab hand at smoke pipe work, but I still can't see why this should work while the original not. It seems the drop down to exhaust the flue gas has been eliminated.

I wonder what would happen if the original outlet were capped and exhaust directly from the top of the back pipe. That seems to be the only change now. I suspect it would work without thase extra pipes.

It was recovering in base mode which does not contend with the exhaust having to drop down, but only an elbow.

 
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joeq
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Post by joeq » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 9:03 pm

I like what Franco suggests here Mike. straight up from the rear pipe seems better. It would appear to me when you're operating in direct draft, your exhaust has to drop down to meet your exit pipe, before making a u-turn to go up and out through another series of 90° elbows. I guess if you were able to get your coal bed healthy, it cold probably take that path. But maybe there's too many bends along with the drop down, to achieve a good initial flow. Glad to hear you were able to improve it. You're almost there boss.

 
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michaelanthony
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Other Heating: Fujitsu mini split, FHA oil furnace

Post by michaelanthony » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 9:13 pm

franco b wrote:
Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 8:24 pm
Well, you are a dab hand at smoke pipe work, but I still can't see why this should work while the original not. It seems the drop down to exhaust the flue gas has been eliminated.

I wonder what would happen if the original outlet were capped and exhaust directly from the top of the back pipe. That seems to be the only change now. I suspect it would work without thase extra pipes.

It was recovering in base mode which does not contend with the exhaust having to drop down, but only an elbow.
Agreed franco b, this was the 11th hour as they say, I was not resting until any an all possibilities were eliminated before this stove was scrapped. A new back pipe with the proper alignment will be sitting in back in the future, and the piping will be less redundant as well.
The stove and I will be playing with Permatex and wax paper in a few days...working a 4 day week end starting tomorrow :no1:

 
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Pauliewog
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Post by Pauliewog » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 10:45 pm

Mike, I'm a bit confused as to why it would start coming to life in base burner mode and not in direct. Chimney flue not warmed up enough to sustain a good draft?

Are you starting it with charcoal or wood ?

I see your manometer pipe in the background. What is the draft reading when you start losing the fire?

Paulie


 
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joeq
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Post by joeq » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 11:12 pm

Paulie, you would know better than me, but (to me), it would seem in DD, the heat would be heading horizontally out of the comb. chamber to the back pipe, where it would then have to "drop" a half a foot or so, before heading to his stove pipe, which is a few 90s B4 heading out the chimney. In BB mode, the heat in the combustion chamber will be drawn down by the draft, and once heading out his rear pipe, heads upwards through a few 90s, and then heading out to the chimney. But it does sound confusing, because a draft would have to be established in DD B4 electing BB mode. Would be nice to know what your draft is Mike, when you 1st begin your initial fireup while in DD.

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 11:37 pm

Is that the mano probe way up high to the right? Personally I would have it closer to the stove before any dampers, or even probe the stove barrel itself. You need to know what pressure the stove cavity is feeling since that is the driving force for combustion air to come into it.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 11:59 pm

Lightning wrote:
Thu. Nov. 23, 2017 11:37 pm
Is that the mano probe way up high to the right? Personally I would have it closer to the stove before any dampers, or even probe the stove barrel itself. You need to know what pressure the stove cavity is feeling since that is the driving force for combustion air to come into it.
Agreed. The mano probe should be between the stove and any pipe dampers so that it can better read what the stove is doing. And not near a turn in the pipe where flow turbulence induced by going around corners can give a false reading.

Something is strange. If it will run in indirect draft,.... it should run even stronger in direct draft because of less flow restriction for the exhaust.

Paul

 
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Pauliewog
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Post by Pauliewog » Fri. Nov. 24, 2017 12:39 am

If the fire was started with charcoal in direct draft mode and then covered with a layer of coal, it's possible the flue did not heat up enough to sustain a sufficient draft especially if the OAT is relatively mild. :o

If it was put in base burner mode and the mpd was closed down the slower moving gas should have helped heat up the chimney? Just a guess. :?:

I agree on moving the manometer location, and suggest maybe sticking the tubing thru the secondary damper to get a reading inside the stove. :yes:

Paulie

 
scalabro
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Post by scalabro » Fri. Nov. 24, 2017 8:20 am

Mike,
Get that “thing” off your stove :lol:
Exhaust the stove straight out the top of the backpipe!

 
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tcalo
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Post by tcalo » Fri. Nov. 24, 2017 8:28 am

scalabro wrote:
Fri. Nov. 24, 2017 8:20 am
Mike,
Get that “thing” off your stove :lol:
Exhaust the stove straight out the top of the backpipe!
Agree

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Fri. Nov. 24, 2017 9:59 am

I don't think the pipe setup is the problem. I think there's something else causing poor draft in direct mode.

If that pipe setup was causing too much flow restriction, then the restriction would increase in BB mode. So the question still remains, why does it run better in BB mode than in DD mode ?

And it's not that there's more heat warming the chimney in BB mode. There's actually less heat getting to the chimney in BB mode - that's the whole point of having BB mode. And that can be seen by simply checking pipe skin temps in both modes.

Remember that you need heat volume to increase to cause the pressure difference that makes the draft stronger. Open the dampers on any stove and yes the flow velocity increases, but only because the heat volume and temperature increased creating a stronger draft that will cause that increased velocity - not the other way around.

Restrict the flow somehow, either with dampers, clogged chimney, or air leaks after the firebed, and you also restrict air flow through the firebed, therefore it has less heat volume getting to the chimney. That's carved in stone science.

Paul

 
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D-frost
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Post by D-frost » Fri. Nov. 24, 2017 10:09 am

MA,
My eyes may be deceiving me, but, the horizontal run looks like bigger than 6"? Maybe the run is too much. The stove is 5", then to 6", with 2 45* to the thimble may give you a better draft in the chimney. Just a thought. Good luck to you! Oh- and it's a beauty!
Cheers


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