Photos of Heated Secondary Air Combustion in Glenwood.

 
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wsherrick
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Post by wsherrick » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 2:22 pm

It took a while but I managed to get a few snapshots of the heated secondary air ring in the Glenwood doing its thing. You see it looks like the jets from a gas burner on a stove. I thought you might find this interesting to look at.

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DSC00427(1).JPG

Secondary over fire air in a Glenwood Base Heater

.JPG | 95.3KB | DSC00427(1).JPG
DSC00425(1).JPG

Another photo of how secondary air works in a Glenwood Base Heater

.JPG | 82KB | DSC00425(1).JPG


 
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dlj
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Post by dlj » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 2:25 pm

wsherrick wrote:It took a while but I managed to get a few snapshots of the heated secondary air ring in the Glenwood doing its thing. You see it looks like the jets from a gas burner on a stove. I thought you might find this interesting to look at.
William, Nice photos! Now that must have been difficult to do! OK, so next year I have to remove the ceramic lining in that location of my Glenwood and re-install that ring... I'm going to have to re-do the ceramic anyway as it looks like this year it's on it's last legs...

dj

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 2:58 pm

That's pretty slick William. Yeah, over 100 years ago, they sure knew a thing or two about burning coal didn't they ?

Makes me think about somehow incorporating a steel secondary air tube into the top of my 118 firebrick when I get around to re-lining the pot. Or, passageways cast into the firebrick from a heated air source like the ash drawer ? Like that parlor stove with vertical channels cast into it, that I if I remember correctly, you posted about a week ago ?

Like the old say, "There's nothing new under the Sun." ;)

Paul

 
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Post by franco b » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 3:06 pm

Nice pictures which dramatically show the advantage of having that ring.

 
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Post by grumpy » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 3:15 pm

Will, were you burning wood or coal?

I had that going on last week in my 153, it was the whole ring too, very cool, it never happened before in all the years I have burned this stove..

 
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Post by wsherrick » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 3:26 pm

This is coal. I never burn wood in this stove.

 
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Post by coalcracker » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 4:15 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:That's pretty slick William. Yeah, over 100 years ago, they sure knew a thing or two about burning coal didn't they ?

Makes me think about somehow incorporating a steel secondary air tube into the top of my 118 firebrick when I get around to re-lining the pot. Or, passageways cast into the firebrick from a heated air source like the ash drawer ? Like that parlor stove with vertical channels cast into it, that I if I remember correctly, you posted about a week ago ?

Like the old say, "There's nothing new under the Sun." ;)

Paul
a coal fire will only produce enough gas to burn when a new load of coal is initially put on, once it begins to burn through, there's not enough methane gas produced to ignite. This usually occurs when the red coal level reaches the surface of the coal batch, there's not enough gas being produced to burn.

modern stoves with the fixed glass vents, burn off the methane in a similar fashion, across the top of the coal bed, until there's no gas left. You really don't need a secondary air metering tube- all you need is a fixed slit air vent in the front upper door, to feed constant air over the fire in a metered amount. It will light off and burn by itself as it rises off the fire.

With the Harman I when I get up at around 5-6 AM, and the house is still dark with no lights on, I can turn the main draft knob a 1/4 turn either way open and closed, and the blue gas flames on the coal fire will go up and down with the draft adjustment, just like a natural gas or propane kitchen stove will on the burners. It's kinda neat to watch, and it's amazing that draft knob has that kind of precise control. I was watching this phenom this morning and it never ceases to amaze me.


 
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 5:06 pm

There's very little methane in anthracite. It's carbon oxidizing into carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.

 
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Post by wsherrick » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 5:10 pm

The big difference between just having air over the fire or having pre-heated fire over the air is that secondary air does more than just burn off hydrocarbons. As the fuel burns the carbon can be burned to carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide. Fuel burned to carbon dioxide is combusted in a much more complete manner than if just burned to Carbon Monoxide.
The heated secondary air provides the oxygen necessary to convert the CO to CO2. For this to happen the secondary air must be provided at as close to the combustion temperature of the gasses as possible. If just air is provided it is too cool to allow this and in fact impedes combustion by simply cooling off the combustion area. The gasses are then lost up the chimney, unused.

 
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Post by waldo lemieux » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 5:18 pm

Nice photo William. I have never been able to take pictures of blue flame . they always come out looking white or orange. How do you get the right light to do that? So is that ring thing sorta like a catalytic disc on newer stoves, burning the exhaust gasses? Sorry for all the different questions :oops:

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 5:31 pm

coalcracker wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:That's pretty slick William. Yeah, over 100 years ago, they sure knew a thing or two about burning coal didn't they ?

Makes me think about somehow incorporating a steel secondary air tube into the top of my 118 firebrick when I get around to re-lining the pot. Or, passageways cast into the firebrick from a heated air source like the ash drawer ? Like that parlor stove with vertical channels cast into it, that I if I remember correctly, you posted about a week ago ?

Like the old say, "There's nothing new under the Sun." ;)

Paul
a coal fire will only produce enough gas to burn when a new load of coal is initially put on, once it begins to burn through, there's not enough methane gas produced to ignite. This usually occurs when the red coal level reaches the surface of the coal batch, there's not enough gas being produced to burn.

modern stoves with the fixed glass vents, burn off the methane in a similar fashion, across the top of the coal bed, until there's no gas left. You really don't need a secondary air metering tube- all you need is a fixed slit air vent in the front upper door, to feed constant air over the fire in a metered amount. It will light off and burn by itself as it rises off the fire.

With the Harman I when I get up at around 5-6 AM, and the house is still dark with no lights on, I can turn the main draft knob a 1/4 turn either way open and closed, and the blue gas flames on the coal fire will go up and down with the draft adjustment, just like a natural gas or propane kitchen stove will on the burners. It's kinda neat to watch, and it's amazing that draft knob has that kind of precise control. I was watching this phenom this morning and it never ceases to amaze me.
William,

The loading door on my 118 has the typical Glenwood rotary secondary air damper that feeds into a casting on the back side of the door with holes in a circular pattern. It helps pre-heat and disperse the air a bit more evenly over the coal bed as it's drawn toward the flue outlet. It would do similar to yours as far as burning off the volatiles, but it's just below the mica windows, not down at the edges of the firepot. I'm not sure any blue jet action could even be seen through the windows. And, it's certainly not as cooling looking as your base heater's ring of jets.

Paul

 
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Post by nortcan » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 5:43 pm

Very intresting photos William. :idea:
Do these jet flames stay like on the photos for all the burning cycle , I mean all the time between the reloading?

 
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wsherrick
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Post by wsherrick » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 5:56 pm

nortcan wrote:Very intresting photos William. :idea:
Do these jet flames stay like on the photos for all the burning cycle , I mean all the time between the reloading?
Yes, there are flames visible there throughout the entire cycle. When all the hydrocarbons are gone and I have the stove set to run about 450 -500 degrees, you can see an almost invisible, pale white flame coming out of them. The white flames are very long in length and they swirl around the inside of the stove. They sort of look like mythical salamanders that were once said to exist in fire.
I suspect the white flames is CO burning to CO2.

 
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Post by SMITTY » Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 6:02 pm

Nice pics!! 8-)

I used to see this effect (not quite on that scale though) through a gap in one of my firebricks in the Mark III. Was neat to watch.

I'd rather be watching that through the glass of a Glennwood though. Sweet unit you've got there. 8-)

 
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Post by Tim » Fri. Dec. 13, 2013 10:56 am

Fantastic William!


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