Problem With Flue or Draft or Something???

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bently
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Post by bently » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 2:37 am

I have a big problem with my draft or whatever.

I have Vermont Castings Vigilant II coal burning stove. I burn antracite coal, at least I did. I started noticing black dust on coffee table and on just about everything else in the room the stove is in, and also all through the house. Not noticeable unless you put a clean cloth across it, and it turned up somewhat black. Clearly the stove is not venting properly, or so I thought.

Called the company up and they told me I had to have an uninterrupted chimney for venting. I built a new house awhile ago, set it up for burning a stove, and built a chimney on the outside wall of where the stove sits now. The chimney was built by masons, and I had them use firebrick as a lining and also used clay lining inside the firebrick. I have seen too many times that the clay breaks or cracks, as it needs adequate expansion, and many times while laying up the bricks, mortar drops down between liner and brick, no expansion, and you get a break. So I had a backup, and that was the firebrick. Having gone the extra mile for a good chimney, I hooked up my stove to the chimney by way of a 12" clay pipe put into the interior stone faced wall into the chimney. I then put a double insulated steel flue pipe into this clay pipe, extending it into the chimney area. I did not go any further than the side of the smoke chamber. I connected single 6" black pipe from boot into the double wall insulated pipe.

After explaining this to Vermont Castings comp., they told me I can't change pipe sizes from the back of stove to top of chimney after explaining this black mess I had. It was very disappointing to have this happen. I have not done anything with it this winter, other than not burn in it until I get some more opinions on how best to correct this drafting and suet problem.
After reading as much as I could find, it does appear that maybe my clay chimney liners are too big for the stove, especially being that the chimney is on the outside of the house. I could even see where my cleanout door on the outside of the chimney was black from the drafting problem. I don't remember what size they are, but it seems they are 8" by 12" liners.

So, I come here to listen to what you guys have to say. My best guess right now is this, and please disagree or agree. I am burning anthracite coal only. I need to put an 6 or 8" flue (whatever fits inside the clay liners best) from the boot, up about 5 ft., go into the opening provided, the 12" clay pipe, into the chimney liners and up to the top. All with same diameter pipe and insulated. Will this assure a clean and efficient draw and burn of the antracite coal? I cannot go through this black dust coming back into my living area ever again. Also, any thought on what to do for fire protection going through the 12" clay pipe? I should have made a solid concrete area of around 2ft by 2ft with a hole there, and then the clay pipe, (this 12" clay pipe is centered between two studs),as the wall is made of wood studs and plywood, and stone on the living side and brick on the chimney outside. I don't want to interrupt the draft by changing anything, and still need the heat resistance or airspace for any studs or plywood that are in the structure of the wall.

Also, if I use a stainless flue liner, what is the best to use if burning coal as for type? What type of insulation to wrap around the flue pipe going up the chimney?

Thanks. I know this was long, but I had to give all the details. Sorry about that.

bently

 
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Berlin
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Post by Berlin » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 3:36 am

welcome to the coal forum! :)

If you're burning anthracite, you're not getting "soot" in the house. anthracite really will not produce any black "soot"; it can however produce dust from the handling of the coal. if you have black dust everywhere i'd look to how you handle the coal itself, and how much dust you are creating during that process.

 
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Freddy
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Post by Freddy » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 4:39 am

I think Berlin hit the nail on the head, but the chimney may be part of the issue too. The Vigilant is a top loading stove, even with a fierce draft you're likely to get some air born coal dust. If you have a need for absolute zero dust, black or brown, burning coal is probably not in your future. All coal burners accept that coal requires some physical work and will leave a certain amount of dust as it's welcome card.
One thing you didn't mention is draft. Do you have a manomometer installed? Knowing the numbers is important, very important.
It's early, I'm not awake yet, got lost a bit on the chimney. Maybe some photos would make things clear? Basically, yes, the chimney will draft much better if it's the same size the whole way to the top. I'd line it with metal bestus type out through the wall, then whatever I could justify for cost up the chimney.


 
CapeCoaler
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 8:03 am

You have two issues.
First is a draft issue.
General rule is 3x outlet area is maximum size of flue.
Large outdoor masonry flue will not be the best draft for your coal stove.
I faced the same issues at my parent’s house for the install of a coal insert.
Did the extra work of insulating the 6" liner and would do it again after seeing the results.
If the outlet of the stove is 6" then a 6" insulated liner will give you the best possible draft.
Line from top to bottom with a proper cap and you will not be disappointed.
The Hitzer 503 in my 'rents fireplace was done with a full liner and insulated.
The draft on the 503 sucks any ash into the stove!
There is no dust of any kind coming from the stove.
The stove drafted fine through a 60* day.
Got my stuff here
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/

Second issue sounds like coal dust.
Burning hard coal produces no soot but moving or pouring dry coal will produce a fine black dust.
Wet or dampen the coal with a plant sprayer and minimize the movement of coal once inside the house.
You might also be getting some soot from the chimney if you burned wood in the fireplace.
Pictures help us resolve your problems!

 
CapeCoaler
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 8:09 am

I could even see where my cleanout door on the outside of the chimney was black from the drafting problem.
If the cleanout is getting covered in soot it is possible that a downdraft is part of the problem.
Is the fireplace damper sealed shut?

 
bently
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Post by bently » Fri. Feb. 20, 2009 9:05 pm

Thanks for everyone's input. It is nice to hear all different opinions, realizing you really have only as much to go on as I wrote above. I will take some photos tomorrow and post them here. This dust, or black dirt was clearly everywhere, although a light black dust. You only had to rub your hands on the coffee table and get a thin layer of black. This stuff went upstairs to all rooms and everything. I cannot believe my handling caused this, but it is very possible a down draft may have thrown the dust out into the room when loading. Especially when loading the soft coal, even though I washed it first, but I did get this when burning the anthracite also. Yes that is a possibility. When I load, I usually get it out of a 5 gal. plastic bucket with a metal scoop, open both doors and gently lay it on the pile of ash or hot coals. I don''t use the top loading hatch. I also open both doors to stoke sometimes, and this could add to it especially if hit has gotten down to around 200 degrees on the top thermostat. I most likely lost what little draw I had, and opening doors let the smoke draw out. I have to think that is what was happening or why would there be such a mess outside the cleanout doors? The photos of the outside cleanout door will give you some really good hints as to what's going on. And yes, it is sealed shut, even insulated around it. I'll take the pipe out of the wall and try to get a photo of the area where the smoke first enters the chimney structure, right below the first liners. It was built with solid firebrick.

Now I did burn some bituminous coal I bought directly right here from southern OH coal mines. Burned it for about 2 weeks and it may have caused alot of the suet also. It was just too dirty to burn I'm afraid. But had to try it out to see. It was hard not using it when I could get it for $20 a ton. Compared to the anthracite, which was at least 10 times that cost last winter. Too expensive to burn unless I go and get it direct. I guess I could switch to wood, but been there and done that before. And if the chimney is not drafting correctly due to size, then I would still have same problems. From what the Vermont Castings tech told me, he was pretty sure it was the drafting, and not using same size of pipe all the way through to top, instead of entering into the smoke chamber of the chimney and ending it there.

If I do put a stainless chimney liner up into the clay liners, does anyone suggest a certain brand or number of stainless to use, or even distributer to buy from. I really want to burn this steady this coming winter, and want a good draw. Want to insulate this liner also, and would appreciate your opinions on what to use best. I have read alot, but talking to others who have done this is much more valuable to me.

If I wanted to go directly and buy this anthracite at the mines, does anyone know where I can get it directly? I was going to bring a trailor up this summer and load as much as I can get. Anyone know what they are charging to get it directly? Will be getting the walnut size or maybe a tad bigger. I know there is only a one or two spots in a certain area that mines this, but it has to be worth to trip to get a big load. I'm in lower end of NE Ohio.

Photos will be posted tomorrow. This should help and I should have done it sooner.
Do you have a manomometer installed?
Yes, I will install one for next burning season. I do not, nor did I install one, and to be honest, never heard of one until today. I will google it and read about it, as I don't know what it looks like or where it goes or how. Thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks to all.

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