Can I Install the Baro in a TEE? Field Controls Says NO

This forum is for common products and questions such as chimney installations, CO detectors, coal bin designs and a variety of other general topics that do not fit into the other forums.
User avatar
beatle78
Member
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2007 1:46 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker KA-4
Location: Rhode Island

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 1:54 pm

scroll down on this link to Recommended Locations for Field Draft Controls.

http://www.fieldcontrols.com/draftcontrol.php

It doesn't show being able to install the baro in a TEE for coal!

I want to install it like diagram B. I believe I've seen many people here install theirs like diagram B.

Thoughts?


User avatar
LsFarm
Member
Posts: 7385
Joined: Sun. Nov. 20, 2005 8:02 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland
Location: Michigan

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 2:01 pm

They say 'not recommended' but, we have many forum members who have their baro installed like you want to, and they work very well.. I think part of the recommendation is that mounted in the 'tee' really requires a manometer to accurately set the draft. I think the flow past the baro in a typical vertical or horizontal install in the center of a straight run, makes the scale on the damper's weight adjustment more accurate. In the 'bullhead' instalation, I think that a manometer is mandatory..

Just my $.02 worth,, adjusted for inflation, probably worth about $.001 :lol:

Greg L
..
Burning Pea/Buckwheat through an antique stoker [semi retired SSboiler],
Running an Axeman-Anderson 260M boiler burning Pea, About 150-250#per day
Farming, Fixing, Fabricating and Flying: 'spare time' what's that?

User avatar
coaledsweat
Site Moderator
Posts: 9826
Joined: Fri. Oct. 27, 2006 2:05 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Location: Guilford, Connecticut

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 2:12 pm

Field Controls does not want it installed in a bullhead TEE for two reasons, flame rollout and the fact that it does not properly regulate the gas flow.
Nothing is impossible for people who don't have to do it themselves.

User avatar
beatle78
Member
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2007 1:46 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker KA-4
Location: Rhode Island

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 2:27 pm

LsFarm wrote:They say 'not recommended' but, we have many forum members who have their baro installed like you want to, and they work very well.. I think part of the recommendation is that mounted in the 'tee' really requires a manometer to accurately set the draft. I think the flow past the baro in a typical vertical or horizontal install in the center of a straight run, makes the scale on the damper's weight adjustment more accurate. In the 'bullhead' instalation, I think that a manometer is mandatory..

Just my $.02 worth,, adjusted for inflation, probably worth about $.001 :lol: <-------- NICE :lol:

Greg L
..
OK, that's what I thought, and I plan on having the manometer as a permanent install :)
coaledsweat wrote:it does not properly regulate the gas flow.
are you saying that it does not regulate the draft correctly?

User avatar
coaledsweat
Site Moderator
Posts: 9826
Joined: Fri. Oct. 27, 2006 2:05 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Location: Guilford, Connecticut

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 3:15 pm

I am saying that it does not regulate the draft correctly. It will work, but it cannot do it's job properly. The baro works on a very small pressure differential between the room air and the inside of the stovepipe. By removing it from the gas's actual stream, it cannot read the pressure inside the stovepipe properly. Therefore, it cannot make it's adjustments with any real accuracy.
Nothing is impossible for people who don't have to do it themselves.

User avatar
beatle78
Member
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2007 1:46 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker KA-4
Location: Rhode Island

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 3:27 pm

coaledsweat wrote:I am saying that it does not regulate the draft correctly. It will work, but it cannot do it's job properly. The baro works on a very small pressure differential between the room air and the inside of the stovepipe. By removing it from the gas's actual stream, it cannot read the pressure inside the stovepipe properly. Therefore, it cannot make it's adjustments with any real accuracy.
bummer!!! I guess I'll have to put the TEE inline with the vertical pipe! :(

User avatar
LsFarm
Member
Posts: 7385
Joined: Sun. Nov. 20, 2005 8:02 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland
Location: Michigan

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 5:23 pm

Well we have several forum members that have the baro in the 'bullhead' tee, and they have a manometer reading the draft too, remember this is a draft control device.. to control too much draft. And nobody has reported any issues.

I'm thinking the lawyers got involved in writing that recomendation.. My concern would be not monitoring it with a manometer... and maybe if fly ash built up behind the flapper,, The airflow going in a straight line past the baro in a tee is going to be less turbulent than the flow of gas going around the corner in the bullhead tee.. But this being said, why is it OK for one type of fuel but not for another??

Wood'nCoal has this setup, maybe he can offer his experiences.. This is the way I'd hook it up, just because of the ease of cleaning, and inspecting the horizontal flue pipe.. Of course I'd have a full time manometer too.

Greg L
.
Burning Pea/Buckwheat through an antique stoker [semi retired SSboiler],
Running an Axeman-Anderson 260M boiler burning Pea, About 150-250#per day
Farming, Fixing, Fabricating and Flying: 'spare time' what's that?

User avatar
CoalHeat
Site Moderator
Posts: 8327
Joined: Sat. Feb. 10, 2007 9:48 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert
Location: Stillwater, New Jersey

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 5:46 pm

I have to agree with Coldsweat as far as flame rollout and regulating the gas flow. It makes sense.

That said I offer this example of a "bull head" installation that works.
HARMAN 03-21 #2.JPG
BARODAMPER 30-21.JPG
MANOMETER.JPG
I recall the baro instructions saying this was OK. The baro dated from around 1989, the instructions for the baro I bought for the stoker (last year) didn't show this position for solid fuel appliances.

The draft is regulated very accurately, I have left the Man-O-Meter installed for long periods.

It may be that it works well in my situation--the size of the stove/type and height of the chimney etc.

When I fire the stove for the first time this season I'll set up the manometer and recheck the draft just in case.

I also will add that the weight markings on the baro are not accurate at all, regardless of which side the weight is on.
Heating a circa 1832 farmhouse with a Harman Magnafire Mark I & a 1959 EFM 350 (heating DHW).
100% Oil Free!
"It's what we learn after we think we know it all that counts."


User avatar
CoalHeat
Site Moderator
Posts: 8327
Joined: Sat. Feb. 10, 2007 9:48 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert
Location: Stillwater, New Jersey

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 5:48 pm

Also-on the stoker I have a more routine baro location, but a "non-standard" chimney connection. :shock:
ALASKA5 01-27-08.jpg
BARO 01-20-08.jpg
Baro on the hand-fed in action.
EDIT:

Found the instruction sheet for the old baro, the diagram clearly shows the "bull head" location as one of the OK locations. The first elbow out of the appliance is not OK. I'll scan the sheet.
Heating a circa 1832 farmhouse with a Harman Magnafire Mark I & a 1959 EFM 350 (heating DHW).
100% Oil Free!
"It's what we learn after we think we know it all that counts."

User avatar
CoalHeat
Site Moderator
Posts: 8327
Joined: Sat. Feb. 10, 2007 9:48 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert
Location: Stillwater, New Jersey

Post Tue. Sep. 23, 2008 6:01 pm

Here you go:
scan0005.jpg
Seems like gas flow away from the baro is OK, towards the baro isn't.

EDIT Found the instructions for the new baro. "OK" on the "bullhead" location changed to "Not Here". :(
Heating a circa 1832 farmhouse with a Harman Magnafire Mark I & a 1959 EFM 350 (heating DHW).
100% Oil Free!
"It's what we learn after we think we know it all that counts."

User avatar
Adamiscold
Member
Posts: 1117
Joined: Fri. Feb. 29, 2008 7:09 am
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School
Location: Winchendon,Ma

Post Wed. Sep. 24, 2008 8:11 am

Wood'nCoal wrote:
Found the instruction sheet for the old baro, the diagram clearly shows the "bull head" location as one of the OK locations. The first elbow out of the appliance is not OK. I'll scan the sheet.
What if the first elbow is the only elbow in the stove pipe and isn't a "bull head" the baro in a tee in the place of an elbow?
Adam

http://www.homepower.com <-- Great magazine.

User avatar
coaledsweat
Site Moderator
Posts: 9826
Joined: Fri. Oct. 27, 2006 2:05 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Location: Guilford, Connecticut

Post Wed. Sep. 24, 2008 8:50 am

ABSOLUTELY NOT! Your exhaust gas has a direct shot at the baro and it will leak combustion products into your home. It also will not perform it's task as it will have flow against the damper door preventing it from balancing the draft. If you have a double acting damper (not recommended for solid fuel anyway, usually these are found on gas appliances) in use, you will die very quickly.

You do not need an elbow or TEE to mount these things and they work best in a straight length of stovepipe. The damper assembly comes with the piece needed to mount it in a straight length. A pair of tinsnips will be needed to put a hole in the stovepipe. The adapter collar can be screwed or strapped to the stovepipe (see wood'ncoal's pic above).

As a side note, I realize that a lot of members like the convieniance of the bullhead TEE to inspect and clean the stovepipe. You can use bullhead TEEs anywhere there is an elbow to provide easy access, but I recommend they be capped and secured by 3 screws. I do not recommend the TEE location for the baro however.
Nothing is impossible for people who don't have to do it themselves.

dudleynepa
New Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun. Oct. 02, 2011 6:54 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska Stoker

Post Mon. Jan. 09, 2012 9:46 pm

I would like to ask a follow up question on this topic. I'm using Olympia single wall Ventis black stove pipe, 34 inch vertical run from stove collar to 90 degree elbow, 24 inch horizontal run from elbow into a 6 inch insulated Rhino Rigid liner. Chimney is 32 feet. Draft seems exceptionally strong, need to install barometric damper, I've also purchased the Dwyer Mark II manometer which I'll be installing shortly.

My question is,, can I install the barometric damper, a 6 inch Field Control RC, in the horizontal take off section of a Ventis Tee, direcly below the 90 degree elbow in the vertical section?

I see little difference between installing the baro in this manner and the integrated Tee/Baro product sold by Field Control:
http://www.patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.c ... S_02722704

I've spoken to Olympia, they told me that they can "bump out" the horizontal take-off section so that the baro can be installed. I'd like to avoid cutting a hole the existing vertical section for the damper and collar, as I'm using the adjustable telescopic pipe. Thinking that using a Tee below the elbow would be easier than hacking up the existing vertical pipe or using a different brand of pipe other than the Ventis.

I would also be shortening the horizontal take-off section of the Tee by an inch, in order to maintain the same spacing that I would have if I cut a hole in vertical pipe and used the collar that comes with the damper. Any comments or suggestions?

Another question, slightly off topic, is there any advantage of using a larger barometric damper to control draft? Using a 7 or 8 inch damper on 6 inch appliance and pipe? I will know more about exact draft numbers when the manometer is installed, but draft seems very strong, wondering if l should use something other than the 6 inch baro for my situation. Stove is a 6 inch flue.

User avatar
titleist1
Member
Posts: 4404
Joined: Wed. Nov. 14, 2007 4:06 pm
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite
Location: Cecil County, MD

Post Tue. Jan. 10, 2012 8:58 am

If you are asking about the baro working with respect to the position from the stove, since your vertical is 34", yes it is far enough from the stove to place it in the vertical run just below the 90*.

If you are asking with respect to being able to install it in the Ventis pipe, I have not seen or worked with the Ventis Tee's to know if it will fit correctly.

I have a bullhead installation just like WoodnCoal's first pic in his first post in this thread. It works very well, I have a manometer permanently installed and CO alarm readout 8' from stove to catch any backdraft issues. I have had none due to the baro being in its bullhead position. As mentioned the manometer is a must to position the baro weight accurately.

Others on here have used 7" and 8" baro's when a 6" couldn't keep up with a strong draft. I think somebody even has two 6" baro's installed.
I drive a VW TDI, heat my home & workshop with two coal stokers and have two vintage JD diesel tractors....
The EPA just loves me!!

User avatar
MURDOC1
Member
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri. Aug. 14, 2009 10:00 am
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska/Franco Belge/Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: S.S. 2/ 144.08.02/ Mag Stoker
Location: Harleysville, Pa.

Post Tue. Jan. 10, 2012 2:48 pm

dudleynepa wrote:My question is,, can I install the barometric damper, a 6 inch Field Control RC, in the horizontal take off section of a Ventis Tee
No it will not fit as the tee is supplied, nor would I have Olympia bump it out... Order the tee this way: Standard Ventis single wall tee with 'NO CRIMP' on the takeoff... When you receive the tee you will need to shorten the takeoff down to 2" measured from the side of the pass-through to the end of the takeoff... You can have Olympia shorten it for you but I don't expect you will like the results, when they cut them it tends to roll the edge in and you will have a difficult time getting your baro to fit properly... I use a pipe wrap to mark the cut line then use a 4" grinder with an .035" cut wheel to make the cut, deburr the inside of the takeoff with a file and there you have a very good (snug) fit for your baro... Secure with 3 screws and it doesn't get any better than that my friend!!!

I have made many of these tee's to fit a type RC baro and find the above to be the best way to go about it...

I only use Olympia and use quite a bit of their Ventis stove pipe as well as the rest of their product line, it is in my opinion the very best stuff available...

As far as the tee just below the 90 degree elbow: no problem there, just put the male end of the tee into the female of the 90, shorten your vertical adjustable length and insert the slip collar into the female of the tee, 4 screws in each connection and you're good... This of course is assuming that you have the male ends pointing away from the stove?
IMG_0524.jpg
Tee takeoff cut down to 2" from side of pass-through to end of takeoff
IMG_0525.jpg
To show what I was measuring from, the whole picture!!!
Adam in S.E. Pa.

Burnin' rice X twice= twice as nice!!!
Alaska= Modified Stoker Stove 2 (garage downstairs)
Harman= Mag Stoker (living space upstairs)

Lets Talk ROCKS!!!


Post Reply

Return to “Coal Bins, Chimneys, CO Detectors & Thermostats”