Masonry Chimney Knowledge Needed

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leoniru
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Hand Fed Coal Boiler: H.S. Tarm
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Other Heating: propane; wood

Post by leoniru » Thu. Jul. 19, 2018 12:59 pm

Hello. A genuine rookie/newbie to the forum here. Just joined minutes ago as I am faced with the evermore-likely job of constructing my own masonry chimney. I'm not really looking forward to this as I'm 63 years-old and 'shy' of heights, and will no longer have much disposable income as I've recently retired from full time status to part-time at my job. I've spent several hours a day for quite a few days, online, researching various options for heating the house 'project' that I've been working on for many years. It's finally at the point where I can address the type of heating approach to take.
A bit of background is in order.....I've lived with hand-fired coal (anthracite) stoves my entire life. Am presently using a Warm Morning in the living room and a D S 'Circulator' stove in the kitchen of an old and horribly neglected "company house". Burned 8 ton of chestnut, in addition to using wall-mounted LP ventless heaters and still froze this past winter. Had cook stoves of various makes (in the kitchen) up until a few years ago when I had to replace the rotted "Elmira Stove Works' OVAL. So as you can see, I'm no stranger to heating/living with hand-fired coal stoves.
The house project that I'm going to (hopefully) be moving into for this coming winter, is a two story gambrel roofed 30' x 40' structure built atop an older cinder/cement block garage repurposed into a residence. The old cinder block portion was reinforced with rebar and 'flushed' with concrete prior to capping it. Walls are 2'x6" with 1/2" plywood and 1" board and batten on outside. Inside is sprayed with an inch or two of closed-cell foam, with additional fiberglass to be added after wiring and plumbing. Finish to interior walls will be T & G wood of whatever species of trees I can connive off my brother-in-law's woodlot and saw/machine into lumber. Ceilings have 4-6 inches of closed-cell foam sprayed on the underside of steel roofing between the 2"x8" rafters and will be finished on the inside with T&G material which will again be produced by me.
I purchased a used H.S. Tarm multifuel (coal/wood/oil) furnace years ago and will likely be using it with either radiant floor or baseboard hydronic, but have also considered using direct vent/power vented rice coal burning or pellet burning or Lp burning appliances, or electric tankless water heating units with the radiant floor. The allure of NOT having to construct a masonry chimney is strong, but my research revealed that the only feaseble - i.e. lasting for more than a decade or so - stainless steel chimney system (made of 316 Ti) is the Ventis line from Olympia Chimney Systems in Scranton, Pa. The deal breaker is that they refuse to sell their product to the DIY homeowner, but instead force you to hire a "professional" to install their product. As I'm doing all my own lumber-making/wiring/plumbing/masonry work etc., I have a terminal problem with this business model as I refuse to pay big bucks (that I don't have to begin with) to someone who may be LESS competent than I to do this work. So here I am trying to determine the best way to construct a masonry chimney. I understand WHY it makes more sense to have the chimney inside the structure, and why it should be lined with fired clay tile if I want to burn coal and possibly wood. I was also told (but have no way of knowing) that a round flue is superior to a square-shaped.
I've also seen a very few references to "cementitious" flue liners which I believe are the same or similar to pumice-cement liners, and can be used with some type of pourable insulating material in the chimney block voids.
Can anyone speak to these topics? Does anyone know what the Amish use or prefer to use in chimney construction for coal-fired appliances?
I know this a pretty long read, but I would appreciate comments/suggestions from members on any of these points.

leoniru

 
Den034071
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Post by Den034071 » Thu. Jul. 19, 2018 9:58 pm

Leon pm me direct questions .I was a mason over 40 years .jack

 
CapeCoaler
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Post by CapeCoaler » Thu. Jul. 19, 2018 11:45 pm

You are on the right path...
Round is better than Square on the clay liner...
Round Flue Vs . Square Flue
https://inspectapedia.com/chimneys/Chimney_Flue_S ... ements.php
Details About Chimney Cross Sectional Areas and Effects on Venting Capacity of Masonry Chimneys - Translating Rectangular Chimney Flues to Round Flue Equivalents

The UMC Appendix C Table C9-G, "Masonry Chimney Liner Dimensions with Circular Equivalents" translates square or rectangular chimney flue inside dimensions into an equivalent "round" flue diameter and into equivalent square inches of venting capacity.

Why does this translation matter? The venting capacity of a rectangular or square masonry flue, if translated directly into actual or measured square inches of cross section, is less than a round chimney flue of the same square inches of venting capacity.

For example an 8" x 8" square nominal clay chimney flue tile liner has inside dimensions of 6 3/4" x 6 3/4". Just muliplying these dimensions together (6.75 x 6.75) = 45.56 sq.in. But chimney experts and draft measurements show that in a rectangular flue not all of the cross-sectional area is equally effective in developing draft. The effective square inches of venting area, translated to an equivalent round flue, would be less - or aboutd 42.7 square inches.

So when calculating the venting capacity of a square or rectangular clay chimney flue tile or liner by looking at its cross section, we use the UMC's Table C9-G of "round chimney flue equivalents" to get the effective chimney flue vent cross sectional area before we enter the masonry chimney BTUH venting capacity tables 6-9-C (single wall flue vent connectors and single heating appliances) or 6-9-F (single wall flue vent connectors and multiple appliances).
Te round ones also come with a lip...
Seems a better way to seal the flue...

The "special liners" non metal...
http://www.messickstove.com/products/chimneys--li ... imney.html

 
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McGiever
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Post by McGiever » Fri. Jul. 20, 2018 12:46 am

Round flues being better than ones with corners will not forgive if they might be undersized.

I'd be curious to see how many members have round flue masonry tile liners verses members having masonry tile flue liners with corners.
Just because the science says round is better doesn't mean users with corners have been suffering for the last couple of centuries. ;)


 
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freetown fred
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Post by freetown fred » Fri. Jul. 20, 2018 6:52 am

Just FYI, even square flue tile corners are fairly rounded.

 
leoniru
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Hand Fed Coal Boiler: H.S. Tarm
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Circulator, Warm Morning
Coal Size/Type: chestnut
Other Heating: propane; wood

Post by leoniru » Fri. Jul. 20, 2018 7:33 am

Thanx to all who replied......I was beginning to worry that no one would. Have some more brains to pick today wrt chimney construction specifically for solid fuel use. I'm so on-the-fence as to which direction to go in. Living here in the heart of anthracite country, and living with it as a heat source for all of my life makes it hard to go in another direction as it's the best bang for the buck, stores easily while taking up a reasonable amount of space, without worries of insect/pest attack (corn), moisture degradation(wood/wood pellets), or explosions (propane); and it is a comfortable heat. Having said that though, the constant build-up of the airborne dust film, lugging-out of the ashes and carrying the coal up the stairs from the basement are deal-breakers for my wife who I did manage to 'train' reasonably well to handle the hand-fired stoves we have. I suspect that a unit like a direct-vent stoker stove would be somewhat 'easier' to live with, though it wouldn't entirely eliminate any of the downsides of burning coal - it would preclude my need to construct a chimney though. So would a radiant floor hydronic system utilizing a tankless LP-fueled water heater. So many ways to go!
I'd prefer to NOT be 'locked-in' to a fuel source that I have zero control over it's quality, availability, or price. Heck....my father and I picked ALL of the coal we burned here for most of my earlier years, though ya can't do that nowadays.

 
titleist1
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Post by titleist1 » Fri. Jul. 20, 2018 2:17 pm

Welcome to the forum. :clap:

The best bang for the buck aspect and other advantages you listed are why I burn coal also. To solve the carrying coal from the basement issue you mention I'd (and I did) put the coal stoker you mention in the basement and duct the hot air through the house. Or jump all the way in for more $ and go the coal boiler route.

You can keep the hand fed ready to burn for the enjoyment, additional btu's in severe cold and power outages. I have a hand fed I brought on line a couple times when power outages took me away from the stoker.

Sorry to present more options! :yes:

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