The BIG DIG!

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CoalJockey
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Post by CoalJockey » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 6:18 am

You know I have been thinking about it. I dropped a few hints here and there in my boiler thread and then I made mention several times just in passing at Fred's Coffee gathering. Risky? Perhaps maybe a bit, yes... I don't know. Truth is I am just enough of a moron to try anything at least once, even if it results in catastrophe. Some of my "brilliant" ideas never do get off the ground and are left to rattle around in my head... others that have taken physical form perhaps should have stayed in my head. At any rate, this should make a good story to tell someday, good outcome or not.

So what is the big dig you ask? At this point I am presently filling the EFM barrel by toting 5-gallon buckets around with the loader from the rice pile at our coal yard. I don't mind filling the buckets at the pile and the house is right next door so I don't have far to travel. What I really have a disdain for is doing this 3 times a week at the end of the day (often in the dark). Climbing in and out of the loader cab gets a little old especially with slippery snow covered Red Wings and the wind blowing the door back shut on me as I am trying to get in and out. Think "Pain in the Arse."

At one point during the EFM install it occurred to me that as my front porch has a 6 inch concrete deck on a cinderblock foundation, that the fill underneath it could be excavated out to build a fairly large bin. This bin could be filled directly off my driveway by my larger delivery truck and I could then hold enough coal to get me through an entire heating season. One end of the porch was already open underneath for a foyer between the basement and doorway to go outside and I could simply remove enough blocks for a new doorway and excavate the fill outside into the loader bucket.

When I asked Randy (helped pipe the boiler) what he thought about that, he looked at me like "this guys freakin' nuts!" and with really big eyes promptly replied "That's a HELL of a lot of work!" To which I simply replied "yeaaaahhhh - yep." I knew it was not backfilled with 2-b stone when the new porch was built in 1956, but didn't see any reason why whatever was in there could not be brought out of there.

Not knowing if the concrete was reinforced with anything, I did have a couple of different builders look at my proposed idea and nothing seemed to scare anyone about me undermining the concrete deck, as long as I take measures to shore it up properly. My good friend Scott made the motion to pitch in and I figured I could talk my brother into going for a wild idea too. What was the worst that could happen? After all, I have delivered coal into several bins that were dug out of fill by hand the same way, and some of these were done in the 1970's. Some walls and a floor may need to be poured and the ceiling parged, but nothing that I have never done before.

I informed Brittany of my plans and suggested to her to keep in mind she may need to buy a new porch if this one collapses, and she simply rolled her eyes at me when I told her at least she wont need to buy me a burial plot. So 2 weeks ago tonight, I got brave enough to grab a hammer and chisel and punch out a cinderblock to see what was back there. I wasn't very surprised when chunks of mountain slate came rolling out of there, and thought "hell, this might not be so bad."

SO here we go, follow along and see what happens. My goal here is to have a 7+ ton coal bin and if the porch does not fall in on me there is no reason why this wont happen. I might as well make this a sister thread to my 520 EFM boiler install thread - Hall's 1991 DF 520 Build Thread. This might get a bit drug out with my many irons in the fire but I thought it would be fun for anyone interested to follow.

DISCLAIMER: I'm in no way advocating that anyone else should attempt this... I have no idea what may happen here. To borrow one of CapeCoalers favorite phrases "I am not an engineer... train or otherwise."

Attachments

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The offending porch. Fill hole will be located near the far right shrub

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IMG_0236.JPG

Give you an idea of the layout here. This door goes into basement foyer under porch. Coal bin will be directly on the other side of this foyer.

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In the beginning.

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Found the ceiling.

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Scooter filling another 5-gallon bucket

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Running into some slightly larger fill

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Last edited by CoalJockey on Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 6:45 am, edited 2 times in total.


 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 7:34 am

It will be well worth the effort when you are done. When you are ready to pour a floor, don't forget about drainage. Are you going to pour/build a few pillars and set a beam?

My first house had a root cellar under the porch. Just like yours it was a poured concrete slab sitting on top of block foundation. At some point my grandfather put 2" foam insulation under the porch floor to keep the root cellar from freezing.

 
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Post by coalkirk » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 8:03 am

Rob R. wrote:
Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 7:34 am
It will be well worth the effort when you are done. When you are ready to pour a floor, don't forget about drainage. Are you going to pour/build a few pillars and set a beam?

My first house had a root cellar under the porch. Just like yours it was a poured concrete slab sitting on top of block foundation. At some point my grandfather put 2" foam insulation under the porch floor to keep the root cellar from freezing.
I don't think he would need pillars and a beam. The porch deck is reinforced concrete. The fill he removed wasn't holding up anything.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 8:50 am

I agree, if he can confirm the concrete has rebar in it.

 
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Post by coalfan » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 9:32 am

but be carefull old rebar and old crete can and does give way at time pending on age /moisture ie took and load bearing i have seen the mess first hand be care full and look it over very well !! be safe !!

 
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Post by freetown fred » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 9:39 am

Do it once, do it right Tyler. A lil over-kill never hurt a soul. :)

 
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Post by Qtown1835 » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 9:40 am

Fun project. I would recommend installing a steel L channel lintel across the foundation opening. Its one thing if your porch falls in, its another if your foundation caves in. Cant wait to see some more pics of the project.


 
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Post by KingCoal » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 10:45 am

awesome project, we all watching and wish you the best.

i'm pretty sure this is going to work out well for you, but i don't have to do any of it so............

steve

 
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Post by Den034071 » Thu. Feb. 01, 2018 11:50 am

Tyler just a thought from front block wall to the house think about installingsome steel lintels say every 6 foot to support porch slab .You do not have to Cut into the block wall or house foundation if You use 4 inch Lally columns or similar support .Jack the the bricklayer .Another thought are 4 by 8 inch concrete lintels but they are heavy an clumsy .

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Fri. Feb. 02, 2018 6:26 am

Thanks for doctoring up the photos for me Richard, I thought for sure the problem was here on my end. Much obliged, looks good.

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 7:21 am

I have found time here and there to go down in the mine, mainly on Saturday afternoons. Scott’s nephew Drew has been coming along to see what’s up too...he is 17 years old, weighs about 190 and has arms bigger than my legs. Needless to say he has been a huge help and bench-pressing 50 pounds buckets of dirt and rock is good conditioning for him in the football offseason.

The next interesting thing (and obviously unanticipated thing) that we encountered were hand-cut rocks that range anywhere from the size of a cantaloupe to some that are over 2 feet across and weigh probably 160 pounds. It took awhile to figure out why these were buried here but it then hit me that these were the foundation stones for the original front porch that was replaced with this one in 1955.

So the story goes as this: Beautiful Summer evening in 1955... my father was born in April and was only an infant. Much of the family including my grandfather, several of his brothers and sisters, great-grandfather and baby Doug are all out on the front porch enjoying the pretty evening. The old porch was a wooden structure with several wood columns holding up the roof. Meanwhile an AWOL soldier stole a car in a town just over the mountain, and he stopped and picked up his girlfriend on a high speed ride to Loysburg. As the two of them flew around the street corner just above this house, the ass-end of the car got out from under him and he lost control. He crashed violently into the porch, throwing one of my great uncles off the side and bringing the roof down onto everyone else who sat there, baby included. In a state of panic they fled the scene and ran up onto the mountainside and hid there for several days but surrendered when they realized a search party was closing in on them. Thankfully, everyone on the porch survived, baby included, which of course became my father. Someplace I have a photo of that crash, now I need to find it for you.

It seems as though after all of this was cleaned up, and new porch construction began, they took a loader or dozer and pushed up the foundation stones, and folded them in against the house foundation. They then covered this with a heavy layer of clay, and a 1-foot thick layer of mountain slate. The foundation stones make for some very heavy digging but the beauty in them is that we can just roll them right out the door.

I have been able to confirm that there is SOME rebar reinforcement in the deck, buuuut as to how much, I do not know. There are a few places that it is shallow enough to see it and then trace it about a foot or two. There also seems to be what appears as some wire also cropping out in different areas, however we will be propping the deck up very soon.

The decision was also made to dig it out in its entirety. Originally we were only going to go in 10 feet but have now decided to go all the way. The reason for this is that as my EFM is a dual-fuel unit, I can place the oil tank down at the far end. A short run of tube through the house foundation to hook up to the oil burner will simplify things and then I don’t need to put the tank outside and buy blended oil.

Stay tuned, more to follow

Attachments

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Rock pile accumulating

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IMG_0233.JPG

A few more than expected

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Making some progress

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Big enough now to do all shoveling inside

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IMG_0242.JPG

You can see slate on top, rock and clay next, and original grade at the bottom

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Post by windyhill4.2 » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 9:16 am

If the dirt was against the porch floor,you really should be putting some props under to make sure the concrete floor stays up & off of you while you are in there.No sense in changing the family story because of a shortcut .Or is it somehow fastened to the house ?
Should be a very nice bin when complete.

 
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Post by freetown fred » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 9:32 am

Great story Tyler. Ain't history grande! Your plan sounds like you're doin it RIGHT. Crap, your Dad was born in 55--now I really feel old!!!! LOL

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 5:59 pm

Windy, it is fastened onto the side of the house at that end, but regardless we will be installing our support prop tomorrow before we dig any farther. The support prop will be installed crossways at the halfway mark. A good friend of mine gave me a piece of 8 inch wide C-channel and I will cut this to 6 foot 11 inches. It will rest flat up against the ceiling and supported on both sides by adjustable steel posts. We will only be doing one support, I feel no need for two of them after seeing there is rebar inside. There will be 8 feet on either side of the support.

These posts will be permanently cemented in when we pour concrete for the floor, and a plastic sleeve of drainpipe will be around each post to keep the damp coal from rotting the steel posts. Should make a very heavy and nice looking job when it’s over with.

I estimate there are 2 good days of digging yet, and then we can begin setting rebar and building forms to pour a new wall from the floor, up and over the footer for the cinderblocks.

Need to keep moving, Spring is coming. We mow over 4 acres of grass every week so once that begins it is a full time job in itself.

 
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Post by KLook » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 9:53 pm

Great story Tyler. Ain't history grande! Your plan sounds like you're doin it RIGHT. Crap, your Dad was born in 55--now I really feel old!!!! LOL
Just what I was thinking Fred and I was born in 60...

Kevin


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