Themometer on your hand fed

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Formulabruce
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Post By: Formulabruce » Mon. Jan. 01, 2018 5:04 pm

Ok, so what the best, most accurate "Spring" /Magnetic base Thermometer for the side of a coal stove. I have had 4 in last few years, all were off by up to 200 degrees ( vs the IR gun) . Thoughts? Thanks!

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BunkerdCaddis
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Post By: BunkerdCaddis » Mon. Jan. 01, 2018 7:23 pm

I haven't found any to be accurate. This is the best thing I ever installed >>> https://www.amazon.com/Cooper-Atkins-2225-20-Indu ... hermometer

Fast response time, measures the actual flue gas. Mine is installed just under the MPD.


Edit- for some reason it won't upload the image file :?

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grumpy
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Post By: grumpy » Mon. Jan. 01, 2018 7:30 pm

Yeah, need one with a probe..

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BunkerdCaddis
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Coal Size/Type: pea/nut
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Post By: BunkerdCaddis » Mon. Jan. 01, 2018 7:43 pm

Discussion on thermometers can be found
here >>> Post by BunkerdCaddis - A Probe Thermometer

and here >>> Thermometer Choices

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Formulabruce
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Post By: Formulabruce » Mon. Jan. 01, 2018 10:41 pm

Thanks for the Links! great info !

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2001Sierra
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Post By: 2001Sierra » Mon. Jan. 01, 2018 10:51 pm

The key to these probe type is to know what you suspect your temperature ranges is. This helps because you want to be in the central range of the gauge. Too big of range does not accurately read minor changes.
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warminmn
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Post By: warminmn » Mon. Jan. 01, 2018 11:28 pm

Its not so much what temperature they show (magnetics), its using it for comparison... not sure I used the right word. After you use your stove a while you know what temp the gauge shows when your stove is running right, or at its best or worst, etc., etc. Just use it as a guideline.

When stoves are running too hot its kind of obvious as they are really kicking out heat, or smell, or even turn red. Its just a matter of learning the stove you have.

But if you like gadgets there are a lot of other types out there.

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Post By: charlesosborne2002 » Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 10:26 am

My stove manual suggests a magnetic thermometer on the top of the stove, in the center (a griddle). I bought their own brand. The idea (the manual says) is to monitor temps to the normal range of 300F to 700F (allowing for some over and some under).


Why do people monitor the stovepipe? Mine is Class A chimney direct to the stove (for clearances)--do double wall pipes need monitoring? What does that tell us?

My flue length is not longer than needed (one-story house), so I should be able to maintain good draft (it has worked well with a wood stove for 7 years). My wood stove was convection (except the front), so a thermometer did not seem useful, whereas the coal stove is radiant (except the back and the bottom--which have heat shield convection). Clearly I don't want to overheat the stove, so a thermometer ought to be useful. It will also show when I can close the internal damper (over 500F, the manual says).

I too have found storebought themometers of all kinds to be iffy. I just bought one for the porch, which seems to be about 3 degrees off (going by a mercury darkroom themometer that is quite accurate). I doubt that much deviation would matter on a stove. The oven temp on my kitchen stove matches pretty closely the storebought thermometer I have for that.

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warminmn
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Post By: warminmn » Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 10:44 am

Some put a thermometer on the pipe and compare it to the stoves temp, an efficiency measurement. If you are wasting a lot of heat the pipe will get hot.
Last edited by warminmn on Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post By: VigIIPeaBurner » Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 2:22 pm

Your Vigilant II runs a hot firebox so the griddle is the best place and also where the hottest gasses are trapped before they go down and out the sides of the double boxed stove. It's a fully radiant stove. The griddle temp is important because after that, the heat is exchanged to the room at varying degrees as the gas makes its way to the flue pipe. The griddle temp relates to the firebox temp immediately below.
Image

Most other coal stoves are double walled and incorporate a fan to move air between the two making an accurate reading hard to get unless you go with the probe in the flue. They're mainly a combination of convection and radiant.

Comparing the 2, a mag thermometer on the top of a convection stove would have to be compared to the flue gas temp. I sort of do the same, sort of. I put the mag on the shelf to the right of the dome and don't worry about how accurate it is. I just relate the pointer position to the actual IR reading off the griddle.
Image

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Post By: rberq » Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 8:14 pm

charlesosborne2002 wrote:
Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 10:26 am
Why do people monitor the stovepipe?
I pay attention to that mainly with very low fires, fall and spring. As long as the stovepipe surface temperature above the baro stays around 90 - 100 degrees I know the fire is still healthy, even if all I can see through the glass is black.

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Post By: charlesosborne2002 » Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 8:49 pm

VigII, I realize the Vigilant II is a radiant stove, but only meant that a rear heat shield forms a circulating air current over the stove surface and the heated air rises into the room--a convection effect that seriously blocks radiant heat (making clearances reduced). In its way, the bottom heat shield also blocks radiant heat and creates a circulating air current into the room (convection).

But if I measure heat of the griddle and heat of the pipe, and compare them--what am I looking for? What do I do about it? Also, does the skin temp of double pipe or Class A pipe tell me anything? With a hot fire, I can put my hand on it unless it has really burned hot for hours. Even then, the skin is hot but the draft is still quite strong if I give the fire air, or weaker if I reduce the air. Or is there a way to take the temp of the flue gas itself? Surely I don't want to pierce the double wall pipe?

Or did you mean you take both readings off the stove top--the griddle and the right hand side where the exiting gases are? What do you do about the information when you have it? Is there some ideal ratio or difference?

Does all this depend on whether the internal damper is in updraft or side draft?

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:
Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 2:22 pm
Your Vigilant II runs a hot firebox so the griddle is the best place and also where the hottest gasses are trapped before they go down and out the sides of the double boxed stove. It's a fully radiant stove. The griddle temp is important because after that, the heat is exchanged to the room at varying degrees as the gas makes its way to the flue pipe. The griddle temp relates to the firebox temp immediately below.
Image

Most other coal stoves are double walled and incorporate a fan to move air between the two making an accurate reading hard to get unless you go with the probe in the flue. They're mainly a combination of convection and radiant.

Comparing the 2, a mag thermometer on the top of a convection stove would have to be compared to the flue gas temp. I sort of do the same, sort of. I put the mag on the shelf to the right of the dome and don't worry about how accurate it is. I just relate the pointer position to the actual IR reading off the griddle.
Image

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Post By: Lightning » Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 9:49 pm

Basically, monitoring the stove temp is a useful tool to help you run your stove more effectively thru trial and error. For example, thru experience you'll learn that when it's 30 degrees outside maybe you need to run the stove temp at 350 to maintain 70 degrees in the house. When it's zero outside maybe 550 on the stove is needed. Then when it's 55 outside maybe only 200 on the stove is plenty. Also, you'll notice how much primary combustion air is needed to achieve those temperatures and you'll be able to anticipate how hot to run your stove for given conditions outside. Another handy thing you'll pick up on is tending times. Maybe at 200 degrees on the stove you can get a 24 hour burn no problem. At 350 maybe you can get 18 hours. At 5-600 maybe you can only get 12 hours. Thru running your stove day in day out you'll learn all these neat things and by noting the stove temp you'll be able to give your stove what it needs to keep you both happy. Be the fire.

When it comes to the flue pipe temp there are a lot of shades of gray. Location of the thermometer from the stove (distance wise) will impact the temperature. Reading a vertical vs a horizontal pipe will be different and any convection currents in the room will impact it. I use the pipe temp to help adjust secondary combustion air. I've noticed that with excessive secondary air the pipe temp will rise indicating that more heat mass is being carried up the chimney. With less secondary air the pipe temp will come down slightly indicating that heat is spending more time in the burn chamber where it will radiate to the room (or convection air in my case). But some secondary air is needed for optimum combustion efficiency so there is a fine line there.

That's what goes on in my mind anyways lol.

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Formulabruce
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Post By: Formulabruce » Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 11:38 pm

rberq wrote:
Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 8:14 pm
I pay attention to that mainly with very low fires, fall and spring. As long as the stovepipe surface temperature above the baro stays around 90 - 100 degrees I know the fire is still healthy, even if all I can see through the glass is black.
This is Exactly why I have mine, To get those long 24 hour + Burns at barely there temps. Avoid a re start.
Excellent plan..

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Post By: VigIIPeaBurner » Sun. Aug. 26, 2018 12:52 am

charlesosborne2002 wrote:
Sat. Aug. 25, 2018 8:49 pm
VigII, I realize the Vigilant II is a radiant stove, but only meant that a rear heat shield forms a circulating air current over the stove surface and the heated air rises into the room--a convection effect that seriously blocks radiant heat (making clearances reduced). In its way, the bottom heat shield also blocks radiant heat and creates a circulating air current into the room (convection).

But if I measure heat of the griddle and heat of the pipe, and compare them--what am I looking for? What do I do about it? Also, does the skin temp of double pipe or Class A pipe tell me anything? With a hot fire, I can put my hand on it unless it has really burned hot for hours. Even then, the skin is hot but the draft is still quite strong if I give the fire air, or weaker if I reduce the air. Or is there a way to take the temp of the flue gas itself? Surely I don't want to pierce the double wall pipe?

Or did you mean you take both readings off the stove top--the griddle and the right hand side where the exiting gases are? What do you do about the information when you have it? Is there some ideal ratio or difference?

Does all this depend on whether the internal damper is in updraft or side draft?
Yes it does depend on if the stove is damped down (side draft). My stove gets damped down as soon as I see strong blue flames shortly after adding coal. Also I do not mess with the air inlet. Once I establish a fire I let the thermostat do its job and regulate the stove temperature. The adjustment rod is usually a few degrees of angle left or right of vertical throughout the season. It is adjusted for changes in outdoor temps when they swing maybe 15-20 degrees, otherwise it stays put. YMMV. Lightning (above post :yes: ) describes the change results well.

What do I do with the mag reading - well I take both an use the shelf reading as a reference point, not an exact temp. I get a feel for when it says, say 400*, my IR will read 600 at the middle of the griddle. You'll have to get a feel for your setup. The temps will vary with heating load.

The flue pipe temp is something I've learned I didn't have to be too concerned with. I check it with my IR where I have a ~3" single wall section near the ceiling adapter 6' above the stove. IIRC, low of 125 for warm and maybe 180 full output (700 griddle). Again, rberg stated it's most important in warmer weather. You need to maintain a minimum temp for good draft when it's warm out. You'll have to learn what works for your setup, just watch the fire - it'll give you an idea of what it needs for draft and temperature output.

I put the rear heat shield on both VC stoves I've had to create some directional air movement. I think it helps wash more heat off the entire stove. Most of the radiant energy comes off the front of the stove where it's single wall cast iron. My current set up needs the rear shield for the reason you stated - clearance. Also why I have double wall SS pipe. Here is a picture taken in "IR" mode showing the radiant energy lighting the room at night. It's really just a mode on the wife's iPad camera.
Image Image

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