Power Outage Safety Zone, Hand Fed Boiler

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 9:55 am

so no need to kill the power I guess, a'stat was satisfied and boiler temp is now up to 188, and seems to be plaining out, a'stat is set at 170.

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 10:50 am

So it hit about 192, and is Now hovering at 190. Dump zone is set at 200.

 
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Post by dbsuz05 » Sun. Nov. 15, 2015 9:52 pm

Gravity flow systems work like a Ferris wheel of water. Hot water flows to highest point then cool water returns to low point.
Is the baseboard attached to ceiling pitched? say one inch per 16 feet? and then pitched back down the same way for the return? This would be an easy fix if not though. One last suggestion would be auto air bleeders at both high spots, before auto mag and after auto mag.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 5:06 am

yes the run is elevated, and all the air is out, as discussed before I think my actual zones are just over power this little one, they gravity flow great, if I stop them and start this baseboard one, it flows.

 
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Post by dbsuz05 » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 9:08 am

Ahh that's good. So it does actually work when the power is off. Like when no circulators are running.


 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 12:44 pm

No it doesn't, I have to physically shut off my other zones before it will start working, I can only manually shut them off so it's useless to me as a fail safe if I'm not home.

 
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 1:01 pm

Sorry, but this still sounds like a job for zone valves to me.

 
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Post by titleist1 » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 1:55 pm

What temp are you trying to keep your pex run under? (sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread)

The reason I ask is since you mentioned your other zones gravity feed real well and the highest temp you saw was 192 (I assume that was only gravity feeding through your dump zone) maybe they will shed more BTU's bringing lower temp return water back to the boiler which may lower the temp of the supply side while the power is out?

 
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Post by Rob R. » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 3:19 pm

The system seems like it can handle power interruptions fine just the way it is.

Your experiment has reminded us why old gravity systems had "oriface plates" installed in the radiator valves on the top floor - without them most of the hot water would gravity feed through the highest radiators while the lower levels got little to no flow.

If you reduced the piping length and minimized the number of fittings on your baseboard loop, it may work fine. 1" copper with a minimum of fittings and a short length of commercial baseboard is what I would try...although I would install the baseboard somewhere upstairs, preferably close to the boiler. This assumes you still want an extra dump zone.

 
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Post by coalder » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 5:09 pm

Not for nothing, with my hand fed boiler, I keep the flow valve cracked just enough that water is constantly flowing at a very low rate. This creates a steady temp, while allowing me peace of mind in case of a power outage. I just dunno, but works for me.
Jim


 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 5:32 pm

lsayre wrote:Sorry, but this still sounds like a job for zone valves to me.
i think though that if I put zone valves in my actual zones, I would start experiencing the difficulties that are related to idling a hand fed boiler, right now, it rarely ever hits the dump zone, and keeps the house warm without the furnace fan even coming on.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 5:34 pm

titleist1 wrote:What temp are you trying to keep your pex run under? (sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread)

The reason I ask is since you mentioned your other zones gravity feed real well and the highest temp you saw was 192 (I assume that was only gravity feeding through your dump zone) maybe they will shed more BTU's bringing lower temp return water back to the boiler which may lower the temp of the supply side while the power is out?
i don't know an exact number as it seems that no one can give me a exact point of failure for pex, but I would say that I don't want to be up near 230-240 for any amount of time.

the 192 was what it hit the other day after a long domestic call, my actual dump zone is set at 200, and it has been triggered before, so who knows what it could of hit then.

my system not only gravity flows through my garage (dump) zone, but also my house (heat exchanger) zone.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 5:36 pm

Rob R. wrote:The system seems like it can handle power interruptions fine just the way it is.

Your experiment has reminded us why old gravity systems had "oriface plates" installed in the radiator valves on the top floor - without them most of the hot water would gravity feed through the highest radiators while the lower levels got little to no flow.

If you reduced the piping length and minimized the number of fittings on your baseboard loop, it may work fine. 1" copper with a minimum of fittings and a short length of commercial baseboard is what I would try...although I would install the baseboard somewhere upstairs, preferably close to the boiler. This assumes you still want an extra dump zone.
i think it would be ok also rob during most power outages, its just always that what if ya know, but the pump could also fail at any time, a lot of things could just happen I guess, yes I think that if it was a straighter shop with bigger piping it would probably work, but im not going to put any more time or money into the zone.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Nov. 16, 2015 5:47 pm

an over view of my system, I have a modine mounted in my garage, which is about 2 feet higher than the boiler, its on a t'stat, and is also my dump zone, it is always hot, and gravity flows well, but it does not shed very much heat because it is just a modine.

my house is the other zone, it is a 20x20 heat exchanger installed in my oil furnace, on the hot side, not the return side, this also gravity flows as it is almost at the same height of the boiler, its all in the basement, pex leaves the manifold, goes up to the ceiling, across the basement, then down to the exchanger, and it somehow gravity flows also, which in return heats up my duct work, which then makes my duct work gravity flow air, which heats my house right now quite well, the outside air temps have to be below 30 at night before it will bring my house below the t'stat setting of 72.

so what I am thinking is that once it actually gets cold out also, my duct work will actually gravity flow stronger, which in turn will cool the heat exchanger more, because it will be cooler in the house, right now as we speak its 77, so the lower the temp on my return duct work, the better it should flow, so that should also help if I where to loose power, now of coarse this is for WORST case scenario also, say its -15 and my boiler just had a long call for heat, and now all the coal in there is ready to go, and bang I loose power.. this is what im worried about. now this is also if im not home, if im home I can simply run the domestic water, tank a shower or something as I have a coil in my boiler.

so another thought ive had, is that I have city water, so I rarely ever loose it, and even when I loose electricity I do not loose water, so because I have a DHW coil and a drain in my basement, I have thought about putting a line to the drain, with say the auto mag zone valve in it, or some other type of valve, that is shut when power, and when I loose power it opens, and then just neck it down to something like a half gallon per hour, and then I the coil will pull heat out of the boiler and keep it from getting to hot, then one someone gets home, they can shut it off, (if I put a shut off in it) and then proceed.

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