How Much Coal Is Wasted Per Day Through a Barometric Damper?

This forum is for common products and questions such as chimney installations, CO detectors, coal bin designs and a variety of other general topics that do not fit into the other forums.
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lsayre
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Post Thu. Dec. 19, 2013 8:41 pm

How many of you here on the forum have transitioned either from an MPD to a barometric damper, or visa-versa, while maintaining the same stove in the same house? Those of you who have done this should be in the best position to tell us if one or the other method was easier on coal consumption.
-Larry

Democracy rests upon the principle that collective wisdom arises from a pool of individual ignorance. A Republic rests squarely upon objective law, and fundamentally upon those laws which restrict the scope and actions of government.


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lsayre
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Post Thu. Dec. 19, 2013 8:47 pm

SMITTY wrote:Yep - both manuals for the Mark I & III said NEITHER. Harman is big (or was big), and they're "lawyered up" to the max.
The current 'install manual' as seen on the Harman website for their Mark III says this:

"A barometric damper may be installed
to prevent excessive or erratic draft.
MANUAL DAMPERS OR 'HEAT SAVERS' MUST
NEVER BE INSTALLED IN THE FLUE PIPE"
-Larry

Democracy rests upon the principle that collective wisdom arises from a pool of individual ignorance. A Republic rests squarely upon objective law, and fundamentally upon those laws which restrict the scope and actions of government.

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Carbon12
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Post Thu. Dec. 19, 2013 11:19 pm

:D :D :D :D :D

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/barometric-dr ... ful.75742/

Make sure you hit the "click to expand" tab for the full article.
No matter where you go,......there you are.

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Lightning
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 3:53 am

Carbon12, You are my Hero of the day!! What a fantastic article and I can't disagree with any of it! I copied part of that article. It exactly implies my whole spiel about how much ADDITIONAL infiltration I nearly lost my mind on a few pages ago. :lol:

" There are 2 possible liabilities of barometric draft controls. Using a barometric draft control results in additional house air lost up the chimney. The net heat loss this represents depends on the excess draft in the chimney, the outdoor temperature, and on how much of the air flow represents extra house exfiltration caused by the damper (versus a rerouting of air through the damper--air which would have left by another route). Tests to determine how much new air infiltration is caused by using a barometric draft control are difficult to perform, since they must be done in actual homes. Since the amount of air flow into the control is typically small compared to house air exchange rates, it is likely that most of the air flow into the control is merely a rerouting of the air, not new infiltration, and, therefore, it does not represent a new heat loss. "

This is a monumental victory for the baro believers.

Ya''ll thought ize nuts hahaha. Frankly, I started to question my own sanity :lol:

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Lightning
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 7:36 am

For now I stand by my guess of 50% additional cold air infiltration because It's the best answer between all or nothing due to the other variables unknown. It's unknown how well the house is sealed at the top, unknown how will it's sealed at the floor and unknown where exactly the neutral pressure plane is sitting.

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freetown fred
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 8:28 am

Ya know, if we as basic idiots in the large scheme of life were to search hard enough, we could find all sorts of nonsense to document our OWN nonsense :clap: toothy This supposed battle between baro or MPD comes down to 2 things--SAFETY & PERFORMANCE--of course there will always be the fanatics that just "HAVE TO BE RIGHT". If a Baro works well in your situation, have at it--the same goes for the MPD. Sometimes I'll get to feeling that my life is pretty boring & lacks a lot of direction during the winter months--I want to personally want to thank all involved in keeping, what started off as an informational topic, going to the point of ridiculousness, because it confirms that I'm actually OK ;)
"A people that values it's privileges above it's principals, soon loses both"--Dwight D Eisenhower

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Carbon12
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 8:49 am

@ Fred: Very hard to type with this garbage bag over my head and taped around my neck :) I'm just using all this as an intellectual exercise. I think what we have all discovered is, as you say, whatever works for each of us is best. I have no agenda other than trying to educate myself as to what saves heating dollars when and under what conditions in my particular case.
No matter where you go,......there you are.

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blrman07
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 9:09 am

freetown fred wrote:Ya know, if we as basic idiots in the large scheme of life were to search hard enough, we could find all sorts of nonsense to document our OWN nonsense :clap: toothy This supposed battle between baro or MPD comes down to 2 things--SAFETY & PERFORMANCE--of course there will always be the fanatics that just "HAVE TO BE RIGHT". If a Baro works well in your situation, have at it--the same goes for the MPD. Sometimes I'll get to feeling that my life is pretty boring & lacks a lot of direction during the winter months--I want to personally want to thank all involved in keeping, what started off as an informational topic, going to the point of ridiculousness, because it confirms that I'm actually OK ;)
Fred it really really scares me to say that I think we have a similar outlook and thought process. Nothing personal, just scary.

More than once during this thread I looked at it and said WHAT? out loud. I went to college, I have a degree, I worked as an engineer in the steam and hot water heating and steam power field for 27 years and I can't remember so much time and effort and brain power being put into a thought exercise. I think it has now been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that an MPD and a baro perform the same type of function. Only main difference is that one is manually operated and one is automatically operated. It's akin to what flavor of ice cream is best.

Rev. Larry
Rev. Larry
Ashland Pa.

1 John 1:9... If we sin and we confess that sin He is faithful and just and will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


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coalkirk
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 9:27 am

freetown fred wrote:Ya know, if we as basic idiots in the large scheme of life were to search hard enough, we could find all sorts of nonsense to document our OWN nonsense :clap: toothy This supposed battle between baro or MPD comes down to 2 things--SAFETY & PERFORMANCE--of course there will always be the fanatics that just "HAVE TO BE RIGHT". If a Baro works well in your situation, have at it--the same goes for the MPD. Sometimes I'll get to feeling that my life is pretty boring & lacks a lot of direction during the winter months--I want to personally want to thank all involved in keeping, what started off as an informational topic, going to the point of ridiculousness, because it confirms that I'm actually OK ;)
Fred I think you summed up my thoughts exactly!!! It should be noted however that all 10 pages of this thread were spot on topic. Well done all. No thread drift. It should also be noted that apparently many of us (me included) need a freakin life! :lol:
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill

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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 9:44 am

You guys are fired :lol: This is my kind of brain candy! Love it hahaha. Yes it got a bit indulgent but in the end I learned things that I questioned so I feel progress has been made. That's my take away from all of this. My thanks goes out to Larry for questioning the unknown and challenging us to get closer to an answer :D
Last edited by Lightning on Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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freetown fred
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 9:48 am

C12, I think the positive is, people sharing ideas on any given topic & I understand the want for seeking knowledge, my point being to learn, UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS & my thought is that conditions change, or possibly vary every second or so. I'm just not wanting any newcomers to think that ANYTHING in coal burning is carved in stone--EXCEPT CO alarms I think It's been a real good debate--I just wanted to clarify that one point:) PLEASE--CARRY ON ;)
Carbon12 wrote:@ Fred: Very hard to type with this garbage bag over my head and taped around my neck :) I'm just using all this as an intellectual exercise. I think what we have all discovered is, as you say, whatever works for each of us is best. I have no agenda other than trying to educate myself as to what saves heating dollars when and under what conditions in my particular case.
"A people that values it's privileges above it's principals, soon loses both"--Dwight D Eisenhower

Sunny Boy
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 10:16 am

freetown fred wrote:C12, I think the positive is, people sharing ideas on any given topic & I understand the want for seeking knowledge, my point being to learn, UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS & my thought is that conditions change, or possibly vary every second or so. I'm just not wanting any newcomers to think that ANYTHING in coal burning is carved in stone--EXCEPT CO alarms I think It's been a real good debate--I just wanted to clarify that one point:) PLEASE--CARRY ON ;)
Carbon12 wrote:@ Fred: Very hard to type with this garbage bag over my head and taped around my neck :) I'm just using all this as an intellectual exercise. I think what we have all discovered is, as you say, whatever works for each of us is best. I have no agenda other than trying to educate myself as to what saves heating dollars when and under what conditions in my particular case.
Well said, C12 and Fred ! :) And ditto here.

Thank you all for an enjoyable and informative discussion.

Paul
So many stoves - so few chimneys. I must be coal-stone crazy.

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scalabro
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 10:34 am

Ok so how about we throw a monkey wrench into this thread.......

What if outside air was plumbed to the baro to manage draft?

Has anyone here actually tried this?

This would seem to eliminate the "extra" coal being burned question.

Or is this a direction a new thread should take?

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Carbon12
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 10:43 am

According to the article, outside air should not be provided directly to the Baro because it would then not function correctly. It's controlling the draft as per the pressure/temperature conditions between the inside of the house, the chimney and the outside of the house.
No matter where you go,......there you are.

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scalabro
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Post Fri. Dec. 20, 2013 10:46 am

Yes I read that but don't believe it!

I believe it will work but will have to be adjusted to a different setting to obtain "X" draft.


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