How Many Amps Are Your Battery Back up Systems

This forum is for common products and questions such as chimney installations, CO detectors, coal bin designs and a variety of other general topics that do not fit into the other forums.
atcfan
New Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed. Oct. 19, 2011 8:32 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Post Wed. Oct. 19, 2011 9:00 pm

hello everyone, this is my first year burning coal. I purchased a used leisure line pioneer stove. So far I am impressed with the stove and coal trol, but I would like to get a battery back up system that will keep it going for at least 6 hours. I work out of town a lot and I can't see my wife pulling out a generator to keep the heat on, plus it only takes about ten minutes and the fire will be out. A stand by generator might be an option but not until next year. I have been doing some research and found that agm deep cycle batteries appear to be the safest to have in the house without exposing my family to dangerous gases. I see that the pioneer stove draws about 4 amps. So would 2 batteries rated at 100 amp hour each be enough to keep the stove going for 5 or 6 hours. I plan on using an inverter charger and I spoke with someone at leisure line that said I could get away with using modified sinewave and only the clock on the coal trol would be affected. Any suggestions on batteries and where to buy them.


User avatar
2001Sierra
Member
Posts: 1844
Joined: Wed. May. 20, 2009 8:09 am
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90 Chimney vent
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Buderus Oil Boiler 3115-34
Stove/Furnace Model: Keystoker 90 Chimney Vent
Location: Wynantskill NY, 10 miles from Albany

Post Wed. Oct. 19, 2011 11:13 pm

I question the modified sine wave UPS. The motors can really get noisy with such units. A smart UPS would give you a pure sine wave. Home Depot has a device called a Kill-A-WAtt which measure draw in watts that would be useful in sizing. APC has a configurator so you can decide what do buy. They use terms you may not fully understand so if you know your average watts for a given time you should be able to choose. I think the cost will surprise you in a negative way.

User avatar
Freddy
Member
Posts: 6603
Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined
Location: Orrington, Maine

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 4:34 am

You can NOT use a modified sine wave. In short order it will ruin your motors. Also, the Coal trol will not work with a modified sine wave.

To answer your question, the two batteries should run the stove for around 8 hours. The only way to know is to actually try it, but, better math will give a closer answer. The kill-a-watt devices actually don't work all that well on motors. They work great on light bulbs & TV's but not refrigerators and vacuum cleaners. Get a reading from a quality ammeter if you want to play with the math. Calculate exactly 50% of the battery power & you will be very close to real life. If you use a "smart charger" even a "normal" lead acid won't give off much hydrogen. For this application you shouldn't use car starting batteries. They really need to be deep cycle. Car batteries do not tolerate "dead" more than a few times.

I have built a few pure sine inverters. As a matter of fact I have a 300 watt "in stock". I built a 300 watt for a friend with a Pioneer & it works fine.
Orrington, Maine
Fred

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

atcfan
New Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed. Oct. 19, 2011 8:32 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 8:45 am

Ok so I guess I need to buy a inverter charger that is pure sinewave ($500) and I figure I will get 2 100 amp hr 12volt agm deep cycle batteries ($150) per battery. OUCH!! Any particular inverter charger that you recommend?

Patch
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed. Oct. 17, 2007 9:36 pm
Coal Size/Type: 2.5 ton of rice with no stove
Other Heating: Wood Pellet
Location: Columbia, Pa.

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 9:45 am

Freddy wrote:.......... snip .......

I have built a few pure sine inverters. As a matter of fact I have a 300 watt "in stock". I built a 300 watt for a friend with a Pioneer & it works fine.
Details please.
Did you build these inverters on the electronic component level (transistors - oscillator - pcb)? Or did you integrate commercial devices into packaged assembly?
This is a topic that needs a FAQ.

Thanks.
john

jrn8265
Member
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue. Jul. 22, 2008 11:52 am
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker Koker
Stove/Furnace Model: Koker 160
Location: Near Coal Country, PA

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 12:00 pm

I purchased a Sunforce pure sinewave 1000 watt steady 2000 watt burst inverter and can't be happier with it. $189 free shipping on Amazon. I connected 4 Walmart Maxx29 125AH batteries to it. ($85 each) and bought a peak smartcharger.

The above cost me about $650 and here is what I have done with it...

I am able to run a large floor fan, refrdgerator, entertainment system, TV and CFL's for about 6 hours before the battery pool drops to 40%.

My Koker will run on it for about 24 hours.

I am not concerned about hydrogen with these wet cells charging as I use the smart charger at 6amps and the batteries do not even get warm...I don't even use the float charge just put it on and off the charger every two weeks.

I keep everything in my finished basement including the batteries..it is no problem.

Anyway, have any questions let me know!

atcfan
New Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed. Oct. 19, 2011 8:32 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 12:14 pm

jrn8265 wrote:I purchased a Sunforce pure sinewave 1000 watt steady 2000 watt burst inverter and can't be happier with it. $189 free shipping on Amazon. I connected 4 Walmart Maxx29 125AH batteries to it. ($85 each) and bought a peak smartcharger.

The above cost me about $650 and here is what I have done with it...

I am able to run a large floor fan, refrdgerator, entertainment system, TV and CFL's for about 6 hours before the battery pool drops to 40%.

My Koker will run on it for about 24 hours.

I am not concerned about hydrogen with these wet cells charging as I use the smart charger at 6amps and the batteries do not even get warm...I don't even use the float charge just put it on and off the charger every two weeks.

I keep everything in my finished basement including the batteries..it is no problem.

Anyway, have any questions let me know!
Does this sunforce inverter have an automatic transfer switch to switch from house power to battery power? do you have any pics of your setup?

jrn8265
Member
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue. Jul. 22, 2008 11:52 am
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker Koker
Stove/Furnace Model: Koker 160
Location: Near Coal Country, PA

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 12:21 pm

No it does not have UPS type capabilities to automatically switch on. This is a manual turn on and off type unit.

I use a triplite aps750 for that but it is modified sinewave.

I am at work and have no pics here but can post one later.

Very simple setup all batteries in parallel with all 4 gauge wire.


atcfan
New Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed. Oct. 19, 2011 8:32 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 12:30 pm

i thought about the trip lite setup but I keep hearing that modified sinewave is bad for the electric motors. I am starting to think that a standby generator system running off my big propane tank will be cheaper in the long run. LOL

jrn8265
Member
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue. Jul. 22, 2008 11:52 am
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker Koker
Stove/Furnace Model: Koker 160
Location: Near Coal Country, PA

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 12:40 pm

When my triplite runs my koker the 1536cfm blower does make a different whirling sound but does not get hot.

I figure 6 -10 hours of running it on that would not be a problem but bit the bullet and bought the new sunforce unit.

I have an ETQ 4000 Watt gas generator that comes into play after the 6 hours of batteries. They make a propane one as well.

$350 with free shipping on amazon a few years back.

It has run my koker, window air unit, lights, fridge etc... very well.

It has THD under 5% and is a alternator not inverter design.

User avatar
Freddy
Member
Posts: 6603
Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined
Location: Orrington, Maine

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 1:10 pm

Patch wrote:did you integrate commercial devices into packaged assembly?

The only "special" things to buy are a pure sine wave inverter (eBay, about $65 for a 300watt, $100ish for a 1,000) and the relay.

Here's a wiring diagram and a couple of pics of a 300 watt that I built.

You hook up the battery(ies), plug it into the wall & plug the stove into it. When the power dies it automatically turns on the inverter and the batteries take over. When the power comes back it switches back to the wall outlet. The batteries do not automatically recharge. You need to charge them as needed.

The sketch is not to scale. In real life the relay is a very small part, about the size of a Bic lighter.
Attachments
Complete .JPG
Inside .JPG
Inverter wiring.jpg
Orrington, Maine
Fred

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

murphyslaw
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri. Nov. 20, 2009 8:11 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: Model 82
Location: South Central, Alaska

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 1:19 pm

All my power is leftovers and take outs. I work in the Telecom industry. I actually have a whole building just for my UPS. I have 3 strings of batteries. Each 48V and 1680AH. Hooked to an industrial grade DC Inverter. Pure sign wave. 7.8KW primary power rated. I can run my whole house including well and elect oven for 18Hrs with out even thinking about it. I have even powered my Mig 225 from battery before during an outage. But when power does come back on, It tends to stress my AC system, as the rectifiers are pushing a boost charge to the batteries at a rate of 160A 48VDC.

Over the years It has cost me about 5grand to put it together. Just incidentals and transportation cost. But all my equipment has been free.

Here is a Picture of one of the three Battery banks.
Image

User avatar
2001Sierra
Member
Posts: 1844
Joined: Wed. May. 20, 2009 8:09 am
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90 Chimney vent
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Buderus Oil Boiler 3115-34
Stove/Furnace Model: Keystoker 90 Chimney Vent
Location: Wynantskill NY, 10 miles from Albany

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 9:07 pm

You are a lucky stiff :x :x I fall into some good stuff but not your caliber :roll: That is the a really good setup. Enjoy your rewards for your efforts.

Patch
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed. Oct. 17, 2007 9:36 pm
Coal Size/Type: 2.5 ton of rice with no stove
Other Heating: Wood Pellet
Location: Columbia, Pa.

Post Thu. Oct. 20, 2011 9:26 pm

Freddy wrote:
.................
Here's a wiring diagram and a couple of pics of a 300 watt that I built.
Ok, I see the relay is acting as a transfer switch.
Do you open the case of the inverter to access the on/off switch, or is there a set of terminals provided?
How reliable are the cheap eBay inverters? Ever have one fail?

Thanks.
john

User avatar
gerry_g
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu. Dec. 10, 2009 10:51 am
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent
Location: Eastern MA

Post Fri. Oct. 21, 2011 10:17 am

Freddy wrote:You can NOT use a modified sine wave. In short order it will ruin your motors. Also, the Coal trol will not work with a modified sine wave.

To answer your question, the two batteries should run the stove for around 8 hours. The only way to know is to actually try it, but, better math will give a closer answer. The kill-a-watt devices actually don't work all that well on motors. They work great on light bulbs & TV's but not refrigerators and vacuum cleaners. Get a reading from a quality ammeter if you want to play with the math. .
Be careful re "quality ammeter". Is it a true RMS amp meeter or a typical Peak amp meter?

Better is a DC amp meter on the battery lines. Clamp on DC meters are $$$.

gerry
Check your CO detector - It's nasty to wake up dead


Post Reply

Return to “Coal Bins, Chimneys, CO Detectors & Thermostats”