Splitting 1 Hydronic Zone Into 2 Using Same Plumbing? Sting?

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Sun. Apr. 10, 2011 8:52 pm

stoker_RI wrote:Ok...you've got my intrigue up...Hope the shower was refreshing..(Plenty of hot water to spare? lol...) and the beer is cold...

Move the old loop zone valve down stream of this branch and place a new zone valve on the new branch also down stream. _ them place a valve for balancing and isolation after each.
-OK..just want to be clear here..you want me to amputate my zone valve that sits neatly atop my supply side manifold next to the other 3, which is in my garage near the boilers, and re-locate it inside the house in the basement downstream of where I severed the supply line feeding the existing radiators?

Its that or you will need to buy TWO zone valves placing then as outlined above and have them control the signal to the zone valve already on that loop -- that would work too - its up to you but your going to have to control the new zone from the old somehow. Just like windows - there are three ways to do anything and still make it work in a wet system

control - well the old zone is going to be controlled just like it was -
0k..so if I have this right, the t-stat line will now be going from the basement, to the tt input on the zone controller in the garage, then from there back to the basement where the old zone valve would now be located?

Depends if you take plan a or plan b

but the new one will need to signal the pump via your transcontinental intergalactic controller that isn't big enough to wear the pants for this job --- soooooo we need an ice cube relay or two -- to fool it to think its sill controlling the one zone valve and it will launch the pump as nessasary - but in fact its taking marching orders from each or both of these valves.
-I've got a spare TACO SR501 handy, if we can make that work.

Ill be staining tomorrow

-did you end up using a water based, oil based, or laquer stain? Ditto the top coat...catalized? Pre-catazed?...UV resistant? how many coats?...
Solvents? ..Careful!..don't ball up rags! they go BAM in the night! ..would make a nice wick for your pellet? fuel..or your hardwood floors!..pork chops would be well done in no time too!

Thanks!

stoker_RI · Post by **stoker_RI** » Sun. Apr. 10, 2011 9:16 pm

I think I'd opt for plan B...unless the relay you have in mind is much more $$ than that of plan A...Obviousy plan B is more $$ right out of the box with the additioal zone valve...
I'd like to hear what you have in mind..
Thanks!

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Sun. Apr. 10, 2011 9:54 pm

so now you will have two secondary zone valves in the house and a primary in the outhouse

currently ( no low voltage pun intended ) the in house zone is controlling the outhouse valve ( via the thingy on the wall )

soooo

the plan will be to control the inhouse valves with the inhouse stats and wire the whole contraption so that the end switches that close ( when the inhouse valves open on demand) -- will be the new close signal that is sent to the outhouse valve via that wall thingy

or some such drunken plan -- I must be tired

stoker_RI · Post by **stoker_RI** » Sun. Apr. 10, 2011 10:10 pm

Ummm..! Yes! I would have to agree with every thing you just wrote!..lol

stoker_RI · Post by **stoker_RI** » Mon. Apr. 11, 2011 5:53 pm

Sting...should I try to catch you now? ..after the staining and before the flow of the brew?...lol,,actually, a real cold one sounds awesome right now..we got up around 70* here today...

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Mon. Apr. 11, 2011 7:33 pm

well sure

I want you first to get your head warped around the notion that you are building a remote supply manifold here with two new zone valves on it - you will also make a new remote return manifold in a similar arrangement when you break into the old return with the additional new return

now if we think about it - and I have often posted that I hate control wiring so often my explanations have that ramification ask your self - all we are adding is what?

well not necessarily adding control we cannot - the current control is maxed ---> we are interrupting the ONE signal now going to the boiler room controller from the existing tstat ---> by the new flows valve you are installing in that loop

- lets draw this on the bar napkin

the signal from the tstat is now going fromt the old tstat to the controler - powered by the controler low volatage power supply

YOU need a 24 volt power supply at the new remote supply manifold to power the new valves anyway so its now going to power the new and old tstat and they are going to call the new flow valves to open -- when (either of) the flow valve opens - it closes an end switch that normally calls a pump to run - ( check the wiring schematic on the valve )---- bbbb but in your case that switch is now going to re-complete the circuit of the (OLD) tstat to call the (old) flow valve ( back in the boiler room) to supply energy to your new remote supply manifold and send energy past one or the other electro mechanical valves to one or the other load.

phewwww

Now this is 24 volt so if one or both valve end switches are making the call to the boiler room - it don't make a diff -- the signal from one - the other - or both new valves = will still be a single close and call the system to heat. just that a signal that used to call the zone to attention

There - you just made one supply heat two unique zones- with out a lot of drama - with out running a 24/7 pump - with out running a new whole new supply loop from the boiler. without a new transcontinental control board.

Kind Regards
Sting

ps -- stain is on tomorrow two coats of clear will get smeared on

stoker_RI · Post by **stoker_RI** » Tue. Apr. 12, 2011 2:12 am

when (either of) the flow valve opens - it closes an end switch that normally calls a pump to run - ( check the wiring schematic on the valve )---- bbbb but in your case that switch is now going to re-complete the circuit of the (OLD) tstat to call the (old) flow valve ( back in the boiler room) to supply energy to your new remote supply manifold and send energy past one or the other electro mechanical valves to one or the other load.

I'm with you up until this point...I can envision 1 zone valve tieing into the now severed original t-stat line going back to the boiler room via the end switch of a zone valve, thus completeing the circuit...but I can't warp my head around the wireing schematic that would tie both to it..two tstat lines (1 comming from each NEW zone valve end switch connecting to the single original tsatat line)?

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Tue. Apr. 12, 2011 8:01 am

just like dual boilers

think PARALLEL

not SERIES

when one (flow control END SWITCH) closes it completes the signal for call for heat back to the wall control int he outhouse
.....
just like the tsate used to
\
\

if you close that SAME circuit and that same signal again via the other end switch --- what have you done?

you made no change to the potential and what the control in the out house sees- its still a closed signal if you close it 100 times - you are not making a 120 volt signal into 240 -- your not making a 24 volt signal into 48 -- you simply making 1 single 24 volt connection to the control but from several places and holding that signal in play until both loads no longer need heat.

get the flow switches -- pull out the wiring diagram -- draw it out on paper

maybe I can do somethign futile of a drawing from the office later

stoker_RI · Post by **stoker_RI** » Tue. Apr. 12, 2011 9:04 am

Yes.. a drawing would help....Visuals benefit me a lot...
I fully understand the concept of what you are saying...its the notion of having various tstat lines calling the original zone valve...(the physical connection of doing it). Obviously, with the original, one tstat line was doing that...if I understand u correctly, that one line would be severed, but still running to the Boiler room zone valve calling the shots...
Now I would add 2 new zone valves, each having its own tstat line exiting from its end switch...each of these needs to communicate with the severed section of the original line, correct? So now I'm looking at 3 tstat lines in total that need to be wired together...Otherwie, each of the 2 new tsat lines would need to be run concurrently to the original zone valve.

It is that juncture of ajoining the tstat line that has me baffled...I could see how this could easily be done with a small 3 zone zone controller, with the 2 new tstat lines occupying 2 of the 3 TT terminals, and the original tstat line connecting to the xx or end swith of the control, but short of that, I can not visualize that connection...

On another note...I hate to rain on your parade...and maybe at this point you don't care...but I hope you are not stopping your top coat count on your floor at 2....since you are staining, 'top coat' #1 isn't actually a top coat..it is just a seal coat that 'locks in' the color...so essentially you would at that point have 1 seal coat and 1 top coat...thats not even enough for a piece of furniture hung on a wall that never gets touched..let alone trampled on...
Depending on the composition of the top coat, for a durable floor, you need at a bare minimum 3 top coats...so in your case this would be 4..1 seal coat plus 3 top coats...other wise keep the high heeled ladies, kids and animals off the floor forever..or sell the house right away...also..each top coat should be 3-4 mils wet, and 2-3 mils dry...if you go less, you don't truely have 1 top coat..if you go more, you risk clouding and cracking...
Gasoline works well too...at this point, after 3k sq ft. you might want to consider a small amount of that high priced commodity along with a match! Just make sure the insurance bill is up to date!..And of course pull out any coppe first!

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Tue. Apr. 12, 2011 10:05 am

stoker_RI wrote:.

It is that juncture of ajoining the tstat line that has me baffled...

dont get hung up on three signals -- its still one only controlled from two points nos vs one - NOTHING in the outhouse will change

see the bar napkin drawing attached -- you going to need line voltage - a fused and switched via an http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Cooper+B ... CEMQ8gIwBA# driving a 24 volt power supply for the tstats and zone valves

if your not comfortable with this -- get an electrician to help - he will also understand how to parallel the signals

stoker_RI wrote:.
On another note...I hate to rain on your parade...and maybe at this point you don't care...but I hope you are not stopping your top coat count on your floor at 2....since you are staining, 'top coat' #1 isn't actually a top coat..it is just a seal coat that 'locks in' the color...so essentially you would at that point have 1 seal coat and 1 top coat...thats not even enough for a piece of furniture hung on a wall that never gets touched..let alone trampled on...
Depending on the composition of the top coat, for a durable floor, you need at a bare minimum 3 top coats...so in your case this would be 4..1 seal coat plus 3 top coats...other wise keep the high heeled ladies, kids and animals off the floor forever..or sell the house right away...also..each top coat should be 3-4 mils wet, and 2-3 mils dry...if you go less, you don't truely have 1 top coat..if you go more, you risk clouding and cracking...
Gasoline works well too...at this point, after 3k sq ft. you might want to consider a small amount of that high priced commodity along with a match! Just make sure the insurance bill is up to date!..And of course pull out any coppe first!

well ok ---- no one explained that drama - I may just leave the floors already don in two coats as yes the place is going to sell and I don't foresee much use on those - I would have to sand to apply more on them anyway and I think Ill let that rest -- but I may apply the third coat today on these as they are in a higher traffic pattern

Thanks for that kind recommendation

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Tue. Apr. 12, 2011 10:34 am

as I have often posted

I hate control wiring

so if anyone has Visio or other line drawing software and they have the time to draw a nice clean version for Stoker ---

God Bless

stoker_RI · Post by **stoker_RI** » Tue. Apr. 12, 2011 12:02 pm

Sting wrote:
stoker_RI wrote: It is that juncture of ajoining the tstat line that has me baffled...
see the bar napkin drawing attached

..OK..Thats all it took! I see you have 4 connections of the tstat lines via wire nut..I had dared to presume that...but thought it couldn't be that simple...kepping it to the KISS std here..

Sting wrote: -- you going to need line voltage - a fused and switched via an http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Cooper+B ... CEMQ8gIwBA# driving a 24 volt power supply for the tstats and zone valves

Cool..I needed to get one of these anyway for the final wire-up of my new boiler. The napkin drawing came thru 'truncated' tho..are u showing 2 switches total? one each on the line from each new zone valve to the Boiler room?

Do you have a zone valve reccommendation? I was looking at the TACO's, but the design seems overly complex...

Sting wrote: -- but I may apply the third coat today on these as they are in a higher traffic pattern

I would highly recommend that! But 3 coats in 1 day?? I would ONLY do that if you are using a water based poly...If you are using a solvent based poly, day to day is best between coats, but 8 hrs is an absolute min! During that time the solvents are venting, which is very important...if u apply another coat too soon, you effectively prevent those petroleum distliates from trying to make there way back to the land of the Arabs...which will cause you problems of dif. sorts at some point...
The floor looks nice...but the pic is grainy, unfortunately..looks like oak?..I like the breadboard pattern between rooms, and the contrasting border pattern..I don't know what u have been using for a sheen (prob satin), but if you put a high gloss on that now it will really make those features 'pop'..you are after an 'hour glass, see thru affect here.....(good selling point)...usually, the process is start with high gloss and adjust down to satin, if that is your desired sheen, but you can get away with what I suggest ok as long as you keep the high gloss top coat to 1...please don't use tack cloths between sanding..just a light vacumn and wipe down with water dampened cotton rag..

Thanks for your kind, prompt help and good luck with the floor!
Don

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Tue. Apr. 12, 2011 12:50 pm

fyi

this is what I just spilled on the floor

http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=66

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Tue. Apr. 12, 2011 12:54 pm

stoker_RI wrote:
Sting wrote: see the bar napkin drawing attached
..OK..Thats all it took! I see you have 4 connections of the tstat lines via wire nut..I had dared to presume that...but thought it couldn't be that simple...kepping it to the KISS std here..

Simple is better - its what I always recommend -- but that will be misconstrued as I often recommend something other than s simple series boiler installation -- its a trade off....

Sting wrote: -- you going to need line voltage - a fused and switched via an http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Cooper+B ... CEMQ8gIwBA# driving a 24 volt power supply for the tstats and zone valves
Cool..I needed to get one of these anyway for the final wire-up of my new boiler. The napkin drawing came thru 'truncated' tho..are u showing 2 switches total? one each on the line from each new zone valve to the Boiler room?

ONE fused switch - powering the new 24 volt transformer -- you can go nuts from there

Do you have a zone valve reccommendation? I was looking at the TACO's, but the design seems overly complex...

What ever is cheep - and readily available -- they will fail -- you will replace them

Sting wrote: -- but I may apply the third coat today on these as they are in a higher traffic pattern
I would highly recommend that! But 3 coats in 1 day?? I would ONLY do that if you are using a water based poly...If you are using a solvent based poly, day to day is best between coats, but 8 hrs is an absolute min! During that time the solvents are venting, which is very important...if u apply another coat too soon, you effectively prevent those petroleum distliates from trying to make there way back to the land of the Arabs...which will cause you problems of dif. sorts at some point...
The floor looks nice...but the pic is grainy, unfortunately..looks like oak?..I like the breadboard pattern between rooms, and the contrasting border pattern..I don't know what u have been using for a sheen (prob satin), but if you put a high gloss on that now it will really make those features 'pop'..you are after an 'hour glass, see thru affect here.....(good selling point)...usually, the process is start with high gloss and adjust down to satin, if that is your desired sheen, but you can get away with what I suggest ok as long as you keep the high gloss top coat to 1...please don't use tack cloths between sanding..just a light vacumn and wipe down with water dampened cotton rag..

Thanks for your kind, prompt help and good luck with the floor!
Don

stoker_RI · Post by **stoker_RI** » Sun. Apr. 17, 2011 12:49 pm

How did u make out with that last coat, Sting?...1 nice thing about using water base is that in does't add an 'amber' color with additional coats...and with today's formulations, don't listen to anyone who tells you water base won't hold up as well as a solvent based...

You really DID draw that schematic on a napkin!..lol..too funny...

I will be attempting the new zone after I get completed this boiler/re-plumbing install....right now, until I finish up, I have a temp. plumbing arrangement where my wood boiler is my sole source of BTU's (yes..mostly hot water now..but...the wood pile is running dangerously low!)....the wife and daughter could be snapping at my heels any day now!!

Splitting 1 Hydronic Zone Into 2 Using Same Plumbing? Sting?

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