the basement is now roughly 58-60 near the boiler and far away from the boiler maybe 55 or sofranco b wrote:Must be something else heating his basement to 65 degrees then.
Monoflow Continuous Circulation System
Maybe I am just ignorant, or stupid, or whatever, im not really sure at the moment.
We have a door before the steps that lead to the third floor. We had it propped open about 4 inches and a chain on the door so the dog could not get up there. That is where we have the litter box and cat food for our cats. It has always been warm on the third floor but not quite as warm as the second floor. I never really put much thought into it. Well a few days ago I started to think that it might be a good idea to make a cat door so the cats have a small hole with a cover over the small hole to slip in and out of the third floor. So today I moved all of the cat food, litter and toys down from the third floor around 2pm and closed the door that leads to the second floor. at that point my thermostat read 64 degrees.
The wife and I went out and ran some errands, then went to the Kris Kringle market in Mifflinburg, stop at her parents house on the way back and got home around 10 pm. When we got home the thermostat read 72 degrees. and it wasnt any warmer today then it was yesterday. So I guess the aa had no problem keeping up. It was the home owner who was not keeping up. Hopefully keeping the door shut to the third floor will solve my problems. Before I closed the door to the third floor it was 70 degrees up there. Now it is 70 on the third floor and really warm on the second floor and just right on the first floor.
As of right now I wired the circulator to run constantly. Doing that the circulator runs off the lo setting on the triple aquastat which I adjusted to 146 earlier. now the boiler is running maybe 50 percent on 50 percent off. I might actually be more like 40 on 60 off. thats a huge difference compared to the almost 30+ hours straight it ran yesterday and the house temp in the thermostat room only got to 64. Now I could cook the wife and I out of house and home. she is already saying its to hot again ... but I don't mind. because now I have faith that my boiler will heat my house this winter.
on a side note, like mentioned I wired the circulator to run constantly. well I have it wired two different ways actually. The first way I wired the circulator was by connecting bell wire to the TT terminals on the aquastat and connecting those wires to a switch. Doing it this way lets me run the circulator non stop but it goes of the hi setting on the triple aquastat.
The second way I wired the circulator to run non stop is by going into the junction box and finding the whit black and green wires coming from the circulator and wiring them into an extension. Doing it this way lets me run off the lo settining on the triple aquastat. and if the thermostat drops below desired set point the boiler can still fire enough to keep up and not overheat my house.
Well running the circulator non stop did over heat my house. So I went back to just running off the thermostat.
Earlier this week I also insulated the attic. there was about 6-8 inches of insulation up there and I added r30 insulation that was 9 1/2 inches thick. so now I have about 15 1/2 to 17 1/2 inches of insulation in the attic. hopefully this makes a difference.
I also added a second Barometric damper and installed a new pump. I installed a second damper because when it is windy my draft increases like crazy. The highest I saw the draft on the manometer last week when it was windy was .14. and that is insanely high. for the most part it just fluctuated between .05-.10 but I saw it hit .14. I also installed the taco 0011-f4. I was using the taco 007-f5 before that. this new pump, pumps about 31 gallons per minute compared to the 11 the 007 pushed out. so hopefully the new pump makes a difference.
Also when I was running the circulator non stop I burned a lot more coal then I would of normally just running off of the thermostat. so thats why I went back to running off of the thermostat. I also bought a new thermostat that supposedly keeps the temperature to within 1/4 degree of the set point making the boiler cycle more often. I think this is making a difference in the house. I don't notice much if any overshoot of room temperature and there isnt near as much of a temperature fluctuation from when the boiler is done heating till it heats again. I think this new thermostat is keeping the house at a more constant temperature.
We have a door before the steps that lead to the third floor. We had it propped open about 4 inches and a chain on the door so the dog could not get up there. That is where we have the litter box and cat food for our cats. It has always been warm on the third floor but not quite as warm as the second floor. I never really put much thought into it. Well a few days ago I started to think that it might be a good idea to make a cat door so the cats have a small hole with a cover over the small hole to slip in and out of the third floor. So today I moved all of the cat food, litter and toys down from the third floor around 2pm and closed the door that leads to the second floor. at that point my thermostat read 64 degrees.
The wife and I went out and ran some errands, then went to the Kris Kringle market in Mifflinburg, stop at her parents house on the way back and got home around 10 pm. When we got home the thermostat read 72 degrees. and it wasnt any warmer today then it was yesterday. So I guess the aa had no problem keeping up. It was the home owner who was not keeping up. Hopefully keeping the door shut to the third floor will solve my problems. Before I closed the door to the third floor it was 70 degrees up there. Now it is 70 on the third floor and really warm on the second floor and just right on the first floor.
As of right now I wired the circulator to run constantly. Doing that the circulator runs off the lo setting on the triple aquastat which I adjusted to 146 earlier. now the boiler is running maybe 50 percent on 50 percent off. I might actually be more like 40 on 60 off. thats a huge difference compared to the almost 30+ hours straight it ran yesterday and the house temp in the thermostat room only got to 64. Now I could cook the wife and I out of house and home. she is already saying its to hot again ... but I don't mind. because now I have faith that my boiler will heat my house this winter.
on a side note, like mentioned I wired the circulator to run constantly. well I have it wired two different ways actually. The first way I wired the circulator was by connecting bell wire to the TT terminals on the aquastat and connecting those wires to a switch. Doing it this way lets me run the circulator non stop but it goes of the hi setting on the triple aquastat.
The second way I wired the circulator to run non stop is by going into the junction box and finding the whit black and green wires coming from the circulator and wiring them into an extension. Doing it this way lets me run off the lo settining on the triple aquastat. and if the thermostat drops below desired set point the boiler can still fire enough to keep up and not overheat my house.
Well running the circulator non stop did over heat my house. So I went back to just running off the thermostat.
Earlier this week I also insulated the attic. there was about 6-8 inches of insulation up there and I added r30 insulation that was 9 1/2 inches thick. so now I have about 15 1/2 to 17 1/2 inches of insulation in the attic. hopefully this makes a difference.
I also added a second Barometric damper and installed a new pump. I installed a second damper because when it is windy my draft increases like crazy. The highest I saw the draft on the manometer last week when it was windy was .14. and that is insanely high. for the most part it just fluctuated between .05-.10 but I saw it hit .14. I also installed the taco 0011-f4. I was using the taco 007-f5 before that. this new pump, pumps about 31 gallons per minute compared to the 11 the 007 pushed out. so hopefully the new pump makes a difference.
Also when I was running the circulator non stop I burned a lot more coal then I would of normally just running off of the thermostat. so thats why I went back to running off of the thermostat. I also bought a new thermostat that supposedly keeps the temperature to within 1/4 degree of the set point making the boiler cycle more often. I think this is making a difference in the house. I don't notice much if any overshoot of room temperature and there isnt near as much of a temperature fluctuation from when the boiler is done heating till it heats again. I think this new thermostat is keeping the house at a more constant temperature.
Attachments
Last edited by brckwlt on Mon. Dec. 14, 2009 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- SMITTY
- Member
- Posts: 12520
- Joined: Sun. Dec. 11, 2005 12:43 pm
- Location: West-Central Mass
- Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 Highboy
- Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
- Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler
You should be alot warmer than I will with 17" of insulation! I have 3", compressed, right up against the roof sheathing, with luan paneling for walls! And I wonder why I can't heat this place over 65° mid-January!
- rockwood
- Member
- Posts: 1381
- Joined: Sun. Sep. 21, 2008 7:37 pm
- Location: Utah
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Stokermatic
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Rockwood Stoveworks Circulator
- Baseburners & Antiques: Malleable/Monarch Range
- Coal Size/Type: Lump and stoker + Blaschak-stove size
Why is the weight on one of the baro dampers on the left while the other is on the right? Just curious
- whistlenut
- Member
- Posts: 3548
- Joined: Sat. Mar. 17, 2007 6:29 pm
- Location: Central NH, Concord area
- Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ & V-Wert
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks,Itasca 415,Jensen, NYer 130,Van Wert
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Alaska, EFM, Keystoker, Yellow Flame
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska, Keystoker-2,Leisure Line
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska, Gibraltar, Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Ford, Jensen, NYer, Van Wert,
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwoods
- Coal Size/Type: Barley, Buck, Rice ,Nut, Stove
- Other Heating: Oil HWBB
.....And that is a good thing? Like a filibuster I guess......Can someone notify Dr Phil, please. ..can ewe say: "intervention"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :surrender:
- Poconoeagle
- Member
- Posts: 6397
- Joined: Sat. Nov. 08, 2008 7:26 pm
- Location: Tobyhanna PA
ok so wheres the pic of the manometer now that you moved the weight? same draft?
Not very sporting, it is after all .....FOR NOTHINGbrckwlt wrote:OHHH here I got all excited when I saw this topic back at the top of the active topic list. I thought you guys had something to add to my thread .... thanx for nothing
U need to chill sting ... I listened to everything you had to say. I just got excited when I saw the thread back from the dead but then it was a couple posts of non sense so I was disappointed thats all... drink a beer or 12 and relaxSting wrote:An he wonders why I dropped him like a hot potato !
I did everything you mentioned and learned a lot in the process. I just decided that I think my system works better when the flow is NOT restricted. I even bought a bigger pump that pumps the water faster. The house is heating up fine .... even on cold windy days like last night
since I installed to baros I think it works better now. and I did re adjust the baro weight I had on the wrong side.
I hate to chime in so late, but I just finished reading the thread.
First of all, this is not a monoflo system. It predates monoflo by decades. Dan Holohan of heatinghelp.com has some info on this situation in this article:
**Broken Link(s) Removed**Here is a fitting:
The problem is that this was a gravity system and most, if not all contractors don't know a thing about them. To make matters worse, it's a weird one.
Gravity is characterized by extremely low to no head pressure and low flow rates--hence the oversized square footage of radiation.
I have found through experimentation and reading that primary-secondary pumping with low output pumps such as the Bell & Gossett NRF22 works best and equalizes the heat.
I have a two pipe gravity system. My supply is 6" and my return is 5" with 1,028 sq ft of radiation in a 4,000+ sq ft house built in 1910.
I connected the supply and the return into a continuously pumped loop of 2" copper. Two small gas boilers are piped in to the loop using 1" copper with a bypass and run off a separate t-stat. One boiler is a booster that is controlled by a strap-on, open on the rise aquastat.
I then added an AA 130 in a similar fashion, except that I used 2" for the boiler piping. (Which was a mistake as I get substantial ghost flow thusits hard to get the unit really hot. I am now changing it over to 1".)
I now use a B&G NRF22 as my main system circulator. The system heats faster. The idea is to slow the flow through the radiators to allow for heat to radiate. The NRF 22 has about 17 gpm output at 1' head, contrast that with the old standard the B&G 100 with 30 gpm at 1ft of head. That's still more flow than gravity,so I throttled the flow down a bit by closing a 2" ball valve. I'd like to experiment with a smaller pump like the NRF9 (about 10 gpm at 1 ft of head)or TACO 006 (about 11 gpm at 1 ft of head).
Each boiler has its own circulator. I have noticed that B&G has used the NRF9as a boiler pump on some of its diagrams. I use a three speed Grundfos 15-42 on speed one which is about 9 gpm at 1 ft of head.
There are also lot of postings on one pipe gravity on The Wall on heatinghelp.com http://www.heatinghelp.com/Forum.
The TACO 007 has a about 5 -6 gpm more of flow and a high rpm. I would consider a lower flow on a primary loop as a fix. The uneven heating is probably caused by too much flow. The original one pipe system was balanced to work only on the convection flow out of the old boiler. Restore that balance and you will fix the issue.
First of all, this is not a monoflo system. It predates monoflo by decades. Dan Holohan of heatinghelp.com has some info on this situation in this article:
**Broken Link(s) Removed**Here is a fitting:
The problem is that this was a gravity system and most, if not all contractors don't know a thing about them. To make matters worse, it's a weird one.
Gravity is characterized by extremely low to no head pressure and low flow rates--hence the oversized square footage of radiation.
I have found through experimentation and reading that primary-secondary pumping with low output pumps such as the Bell & Gossett NRF22 works best and equalizes the heat.
I have a two pipe gravity system. My supply is 6" and my return is 5" with 1,028 sq ft of radiation in a 4,000+ sq ft house built in 1910.
I connected the supply and the return into a continuously pumped loop of 2" copper. Two small gas boilers are piped in to the loop using 1" copper with a bypass and run off a separate t-stat. One boiler is a booster that is controlled by a strap-on, open on the rise aquastat.
I then added an AA 130 in a similar fashion, except that I used 2" for the boiler piping. (Which was a mistake as I get substantial ghost flow thusits hard to get the unit really hot. I am now changing it over to 1".)
I now use a B&G NRF22 as my main system circulator. The system heats faster. The idea is to slow the flow through the radiators to allow for heat to radiate. The NRF 22 has about 17 gpm output at 1' head, contrast that with the old standard the B&G 100 with 30 gpm at 1ft of head. That's still more flow than gravity,so I throttled the flow down a bit by closing a 2" ball valve. I'd like to experiment with a smaller pump like the NRF9 (about 10 gpm at 1 ft of head)or TACO 006 (about 11 gpm at 1 ft of head).
Each boiler has its own circulator. I have noticed that B&G has used the NRF9as a boiler pump on some of its diagrams. I use a three speed Grundfos 15-42 on speed one which is about 9 gpm at 1 ft of head.
There are also lot of postings on one pipe gravity on The Wall on heatinghelp.com http://www.heatinghelp.com/Forum.
The TACO 007 has a about 5 -6 gpm more of flow and a high rpm. I would consider a lower flow on a primary loop as a fix. The uneven heating is probably caused by too much flow. The original one pipe system was balanced to work only on the convection flow out of the old boiler. Restore that balance and you will fix the issue.
- Sting
- Member
- Posts: 2983
- Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
- Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin
- Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
hummmmm
Slow the flow
What a novel idea
Thank-you Greg -- I reference that web site a lot, but your far better versed in its assets.
Would you offer some incite to Catskills issue also?
Problems Maintaining Water Temperture.
Slow the flow
What a novel idea
Thank-you Greg -- I reference that web site a lot, but your far better versed in its assets.
Would you offer some incite to Catskills issue also?
Problems Maintaining Water Temperture.