Can you have a coal and oil set up

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Extremetree
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Post by Extremetree » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 8:39 am

Hi, I currently have an oil furnace set up (just bought the house). The oil tank is in ground so who knows how much life is left so I'm at the point where I either need to purchase big oil tanks and oil to run through winter or look into alternative (coal) stoves/furnaces to work with the oil. Oil furnace was just looked at and they said it provides up to 95k btu its 20 yrs old. Sorry if this is long but I had a few questions.
1. Can you have oil and coal set up in the same basement or is this against codes and un safe?
2. I was told a keystoker koker lite would provide adaqute heat to what the oil furnace does, so is this a good model.
3. What is the difference between the coal stoker stoves and the hot air furnaces, I tried googling but there seems to be little information on the difference.
4. Last one, are they difficult to install around existing oil tanks?
I'm about 45 mins south west of pittsburgh pa. The current oil furnace exhaust is in a chimney, the oil tank is buried underground outside behind that chimney, I'd say about 6 feet from the house. The house is a 3 bedroom ranch so about 2000sqft of heated space. I'd like to ideally get a 275 tank put in because of the age of the in ground one and then have a coal furnace put in as the main source of heat. If its set up correctly (if it can be done) I'd like to run the oil heat in fall and spring and use coal all winter. Also I've ready the koker lite depending on the temp can be filled/emptied every couple of days so any suggested models would also need to be able to do this. Sorry for the length, thanks.


 
Qtown1835
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Post by Qtown1835 » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 8:48 am

Welcome. First thing i would have done would have been to make the removal of the oil tank a condition of sale. When it comes time to remove the tank it will be a pricey proposition, and if it does leak into the ground...forget it.

With that said you can burn both oil and coal in the same house. You will either need to buy a dual fuel appliance or you will need separate flues for each heating device.

 
Extremetree
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Post by Extremetree » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 9:26 am

Hi, I plan to keep the current appliance as I'm sure dual appliance would be pricey, so should I just direct vent the coal furnace to the outside? How far does it need to be away from windows and oil tanks?

 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 10:06 am

Extremetree wrote:
Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 9:26 am
Hi, I plan to keep the current appliance as I'm sure dual appliance would be pricey,
I don't know if there is options for the furnaces but the additional cost of the oil burners on boilers is minimal, it's not much more than the oil burner itself. In fact you should be able to use your existing burner on the oil furnace as long as you get the adapters or whatever they require. One thing to be aware of if you are going to consider this option is it's not simply a matter of flipping a switch. The oil options are intended for emergency use if something breaks or as another example you plan to go on vacation for a week in January.

As mentioned the primary issue with two systems is the flue. Some have used the same flue but you are not supposed to do that because it presents a hazard. The issue is the gases can back up into one or the other unit and eventually the house.
so should I just direct vent the coal furnace to the outside?
Some coal stokers can be power vented but not all of them, consult the manufacturers documentation. This should be an option of last choice, if you are going to power vent something power vent the oil. ;)
3. What is the difference between the coal stoker stoves and the hot air furnaces, I tried googling but there seems to be little information on the difference.
A "stoker" is any coal appliance that is automated and can be a furnace or boiler.

"Stove" is a common name used to refer to smaller coal appliances, there is no difference between a stoker stove or furnace other than size.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:29 am

To keep the present oil hot air furnace I would power vent it and use the chimney for coal. Far less demand on the power vent than if used for coal which needs it to run 24 hours a day

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:36 am

You need to have your attorney force the previous owner to pay for the removal of the tank and any remediation required to protect you as the liability of the tank is now on you and you alone.

PENNDEP like the NYSDEC has specific regulations and guidelines that must be followed for buried fuel tanks and how they are to be removed and disposed of.

Speaking from my experience with buried tanks and the ownership of a KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler the biggest problem is the flue gasses backing up and out through the oil burners combustion air tube and the universal mounting flange and gasket.

Even with the oil burners combustion tube plugged with insulation to protect the fuel nozzle the coal fumes will back up and slip through the collar that locks the burner tube in place and the fumes also enter the burners housing and then exit into the room and the home.

I am removing my oil burner and reinstalling the burner port cover plate back on the boiler as the problem with the fumes does not go away even when the boiler is hot and I have a good draft.

I am no longer going to burn oil unless I absolutely have to.

Before you spend any money you need to have your attorney force the previous owner to pay for removal of the buried tank as it is a huge liability for you and any of your heirs in the event of a leak and contamination of the surrounding ground water as any remediation required to clean it up can cost millions of dollars.

The tank has to be pumped out completely and then the area surrounding the tank must be completely excavated to expose the tank and the fuel line or lines and then the remaining dirt has to be hand dug out from around the tank to expose it to allow it to be lifted from the hole and then any remaining oil will be drained from oil sludge and the sludge scraped out of the tank after it is cut open to clean it out so it can be safely disposed of at a scrap yard.

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As far as coal stoker furnace with oil as a secondary fuel you should to consider another option;

The smaller Leisure Line L110 dual fuel coal stoker boiler would be worth considering simply because you could have
a larger hot water buffer storage tank with a small circulator to feed the hot water to the heat exchanger installed in the plenum to have scorched air heat and also make all the hot water you need at the same time.

The L110 has the dual fuel option where in the oil burner can be removed and completely set aside in the oil burner holding frame and the boiler sealed with the fire brick provided by Leisure Line to insulate the firebox and to have a a gasketed sealing plate installed to prevent fumes from entering the home.
Last edited by lzaharis on Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
Extremetree
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Post by Extremetree » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:44 am

Thanks for the advice on the vent, I'm going to power vent the oil furnace and use the coal in the chimney. For the power vent off the oil furnace, I read it must be 3 ft from oil tanks, now does this count for in ground tanks? Now the oil tanks, ideally I would like the oil tank to sit inside the basement. Can I do this with the coal furnace in there? Obviously I wouldnt have it right next to it but it would be in the same 1200 sqft ish space. So I guess what's the distance they should be from each other if it can be in the basement. It will be a roth 275 tank, for those who dont know about oil tanks these are supposed to be pretty industructibale as far as leaking and corrosion go. So no worries of oil leaking to the coal furnace. They have outside models but with my back porch and power vent to go on oil furnace I'm not sure it can be safely placed.


 
Extremetree
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Post by Extremetree » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:46 am

The oil tank in ground is insured by my homeowners for any leaks. They wont replace but they stated they will pay for any damages associated with leaks and removal.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:50 am

My memory says a solid fuel appliance must be 5 feet from a heating oil tank. Check your local codes.

Having the coal unit in the same basement as a heating oil tank is no problem at all.

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:50 am

Extremetree wrote:
Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 9:26 am
Hi, I plan to keep the current appliance as I'm sure dual appliance would be pricey, so should I just direct vent the coal furnace to the outside? How far does it need to be away from windows and oil tanks?
==================================================================================================


You need to follow the National Plumbing Code for solid fuel appliances and your local plumbing code as well.

 
lzaharis
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Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:53 am

Extremetree wrote:
Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:46 am
The oil tank in ground is insured by my homeowners for any leaks. They wont replace but they stated they will pay for any damages associated with leaks and removal.
================================================================================================

Talk is cheap, your insurer could drop you in a second as it could cost millions of dollars if you have a leak now.
You need to have it excavated and removed by the previous owner at their expense.

 
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Post by McGiever » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 12:38 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:53 am
================================================================================================

Talk is cheap, your insurer could drop you in a second as it could cost millions of dollars if you have a leak now.
You need to have it excavated and removed by the previous owner at their expense.

Yes, talk sure is cheap, but lawyer's fees for foolish expectations are never cheap. :roll:

If it ain't broke...don't fix it! ;)

 
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 12:52 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Fri. Aug. 10, 2018 11:53 am
================================================================================================

Talk is cheap, your insurer could drop you in a second as it could cost millions of dollars if you have a leak now.
You need to have it excavated and removed by the previous owner at their expense.
You've made your point, lets move on.

 
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Post by leoman584 » Mon. Oct. 15, 2018 10:07 am

I have an oil furnace and a coal stoker. They share the same duct work but the exhausts are separate. The stoker is maybe 10 feet from the oil furnace, and the oil tanks are about 30 feet away in the corner of the basement. I live pretty close to you. PM me if you want to stop by and check out my set up.

 
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Post by leoman584 » Tue. Oct. 16, 2018 8:10 am

Not sure about codes or insurance. You'll have to check on that. My insurance guy told me that installing the stove was no problem. It just had to be inspected for insurance purposes. My house is older, so i'm grandfathered in on a few things. I have duct work running through my attached garage. That's a big no no in new construction.


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