Coal Trol Question

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leoman584
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Post by leoman584 » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 1:47 pm

Does anyone know what the numbers for the MIN/MAX setting actually mean?

If MIN is set to say 6, what does that indicate? 6 of what?
Is it revolutions of the feeder mechanism per some unit of time?

I've been dialing in my stove, but the numbers seem arbitrary.
If I had some understanding of what a MIN 6, MAX 35 actually are indicating, it might be easier to find my optimal setting.


 
coalnewbie
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Post by coalnewbie » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 2:40 pm

I know lm, it is a bit confusing.

If say you have a simple wall thermostat for oil heat and you set the temp for say 70* it's simple ... below 70 the heat comes on and at or above 70 the heat is off. Simple make or break, black or white. When the furnace is off and you ask for heat the oil flows and a big spark ignites the fuel and off you go. With coal it is not so simple. Even if automatic coal igniters were a reality (and there have been many attempts) it would take a long time for the fire to get up to speed and the house would be cold. So instead of off/on we have a new concept for coal stokers min/max. I will oversimplify here for the sake of clarity. When in our example the house cools down to 70 the stove does not go out, instead it switches to min which is a low fire of your setting but the coal fire is alive and the house begins slowly cooling down. When it reaches 69* it switches to max and the house is heating up. Now there are many variations on a theme that we can share with you. All I have done is explain the basic concept of max and min. Welcome to coal and we can take it further if you wish but first go to the coaltrol web site.
Last edited by coalnewbie on Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Turbogeno
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Post by Turbogeno » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 2:45 pm

I'm pretty sure it means the feed motor runs for x seconds out of a 100.

Take a look through some of the posts in this link.
search.php?keywords=%2Bfeed+%2Brate&terms=all&aut ... mit=Search

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 3:04 pm

It seems to me that if anyone knew how to properly wire and set up a budget proportional-integral-derivative controller (PID) for the task it could be made to function as a Third Order Derivative T-Stat capable of regulating a coal stoker. *** All hailing frequencies open. Calling McGiever. Is this possible? ***

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inkbird-12-24V-Digital-P ... rmvSB=true

 
leoman584
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Post by leoman584 » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 3:20 pm

coalnewbie wrote:
Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 2:40 pm
I know lm, it is a bit confusing.

If say you have a simple wall thermostat for oil heat and you set the temp for say 70* it's simple ... below 70 the heat comes on and at or above 70 the heat is off. Simple make or break, black or white. When the furnace is off and you ask for heat the oil flows and a big spark ignites the fuel and off you go. With coal it is not so simple. Even if automatic coal igniters were a reality (and there have been many attempts) it would take a long time for the fire to get up to speed and the house would be cold. So instead of off/on we have a new concept for coal stokers min/max. I will oversimplify here for the sake of clarity. When in our example the house cools down to 70 the stove does not go out, instead it switches to min which is a low fire of your setting but the coal fire is alive and the house begins slowly cooling down. When it reaches 69* it switches to max and the house is heating up. Now there are many variations on a theme that we can share with you. All I have done is explain the basic concept of max and min. Welcome to coal and we can take it further if you wish but first go to the coaltrol web site.
Ok. That makes more sense to me.
Thank you.

 
coalnewbie
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Post by coalnewbie » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 4:48 pm

Yeah, forget that isayre guy. Steven Hawking calls him when he needs a question answered.

 
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2biz
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Post by 2biz » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 7:04 pm

What Turbo said with a little more detail....When you set min idle feed (Say at 6) it means the feed motor runs for 6 seconds out of every 100 seconds. Max feed of 40 means the feed motor runs for 40 seconds out of every 100 seconds. When you look at FR (Feed Rate), it is the percentage of feed based on the min/max settings. Say you have a FR of 50% with the above min/max settings, it basically equates to the feed motor running for 23 seconds out of every 100 seconds.


 
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2biz
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Post by 2biz » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 7:22 pm

lsayre wrote:
Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 3:04 pm
It seems to me that if anyone knew how to properly wire and set up a budget proportional-integral-derivative controller (PID) for the task it could be made to function as a Third Order Derivative T-Stat capable of regulating a coal stoker. *** All hailing frequencies open. Calling McGiever. Is this possible? ***

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inkbird-12-24V-Digital-P ... rmvSB=true
Image

Seems fitting....Not a Coal Stove, but close!

 
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Post by 2001Sierra » Tue. Dec. 12, 2017 9:14 pm

The newer Coal-trol's run on 120 second time frame. Min and max are a percentage of run time based either on 100 second or 120 second cycle time.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 3:42 am

The advantage of a 3rd Order Derivative PID temperature controller is that it monitors (sees) the developing future trend and acts on it "proportionally" (or gradually) beforehand in response. This as opposed to acting unproportionally (I.E., only as either fully on or off) and only after the fact.

My boilers controls act (respond) only after the fact. And my boilers fan is therefore only either fully on or fully off. If controlled by a PID and if my fan was capable of variable speeds, it could be turned on at a slow speed initially in response to a developing future temperature trend, and then proportionally (progressively) increased in speed in response as the developing (changing) temperature trend accelerates, until it either solves the temperature problem, or it reaches full speed and runs full out in an effort to solve the temperature problem. And when the PID senses that the problem is being solved, it then acts to progressively slow the fan down until eventually it stops it.

The same "proportionality" would apply to a stoker as to varying the amount of coal being pushed and the amount of air being supplied in advance of and in response to a developing temperature trend. I presume that a Coal Trol also works in this fashion.

 
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2biz
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Post by 2biz » Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Watching these youtube vids on that PID and SSR, I don't think it would take the place of a Coal Trol...While it may control a stoker, I don't believe it will vary the convection speed based on feed rate like the Coal Trol does...The vids are pretty informative taking you through the logic and building a working model...




 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 8:27 pm

It appears that perhaps one PID would be needed for the pusher, and one for the blower. I'm reasonably confident that the Coal Trol is using something akin to PID logic. Did you notice how the PID is trying to learn the requirements to meet the need? He only left it on for a brief moment each time, so the learning was never permitted to fully come to fruition.

 
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Post by 2biz » Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 8:55 pm

I did notice...But the PID cycled the output on and off repeatedly till it zeroed in on set point....I don't know how well a convection motor would like that? Maybe there are other settings not covered in the videos that address this? Pretty neat though!

 
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Post by 2001Sierra » Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 9:41 pm

Above posts are not helping the original posted question.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 9:44 pm

2biz wrote:
Wed. Dec. 13, 2017 8:55 pm
I did notice...But the PID cycled the output on and off repeatedly till it zeroed in on set point....I don't know how well a convection motor would like that? Maybe there are other settings not covered in the videos that address this? Pretty neat though!
That's the part I need McGiever for.


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