CO2 ALARM/AUTO SHUT OFF

 
DENNIS BAUER
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 8:49 am
Location: Springwater NY, (Western NY)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105 - SOLD
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 30-95 - Garage
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HITZER 50-93 - HOUSE
Coal Size/Type: NUT
Other Heating: PROPANE FURNACE, ELECTIC BASE BOARD, AND WOOD FIRE PLACE

Post by DENNIS BAUER » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 8:19 am

Hello Everyone,
So I'll give you a little run down and I apologize for being long winded but hopefully it will help with any questions.
A close friend of mine bought a new LL 160 which I believe is called the Hyfire II. I tried my hardest to talk him into using an actual 6" chimney but he said he didn't like the look of a chimney on his early 1900's house and went the power vent option. He has the stove heat ducting ducted into his oil furnace and unit is working very well to heat the house.

Now to the issue. Stove has been running for about a month at this point and burned about a ton of coal. Sunday morning around 4am he was awoken by the CO2 detectors in the house going off and went to the basement and shut down. The hopper lid was covered in condensation. Now the issues I believe we have all corrected. He talked everything out with LL and found his issue. one of which being he had his combustion fans open completely, had the power vent wide open to keep up with it, and none of the chimney seam sealed up, and his biggest issue the exhaust pipe was over half way plugged up with fly ash.

Luckily, the CO2 alarms work as the should to make up for his short comings and only made for an early morning.

So all that leads me to this, he plans on firing back up this evening. Issue being that his wife is worried about the stove now due to a new born being in the house.

He was asking about an option of a CO2 alarm that would kill power if the alarm went off. I guess the simple idea would be, plug the CO2 alarm in, then plug the stove into that.

Is there an option out there?


 
User avatar
McGiever
Member
Posts: 10130
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:00 am

There has been, currently I 'm not sure. This has been discussed here in the archives...Search will bring some info.
Search for CO not CO2, Carbon Monoxide is CO ;)

At least a couple members here have built them for others, one being your's truly.

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:18 am

I found this one. There may be others like it.

http://aerco.com/product/carbon-monoxide-detector

 
User avatar
Richard S.
Mayor
Posts: 15183
Joined: Fri. Oct. 01, 2004 8:35 pm
Location: NEPA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Post by Richard S. » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:41 am

As mentioned it's CO and not CO2, the exposure required for CO gas to kill is measured in parts per million. It's a minuscule amount, something like 200PPM or more can be fatal. CO2 can kill as well but it's something like 12% before it will become fatal and fresh air is the cure. CO kills by bonding to the hemoglobin in your blood and it can no longer carry oxygen. If you were lying on the operating table in a trauma unit surrounded by 20 fully prepared physicians when you have had a high enough exposure to CO you are still dead.

CO2 has about half the specific gravity of "air" so it will pool in the lowest spot it can find. This is why it's dangerous to underground miners, people working in tanks, sewers etc. CO gas has nearly the same specific gravity as "air" and can easily travel along natural air currents disbursing throughout the house. Either can immediately incapacitate you if the exposure is high enough.

It's important to understand how a CO detector works. They do not necessarily go off when they detect CO. They have thresholds, if it measures X PPM for X time it will go off. As the PPM rises the time decreases and there is the one threshold that it will immediately set it off.

I'm not aware of any product that does this but they really need two alarms, one for something is wrong and another for get the hell out the house. Sans that get one with a readout so you know what is going on.

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 10:00 am

Maybe the better route to take is to have a few CO alarms (with PPM readout) throughout the house, especially near sleeping areas. Most fatalities occur while the victims are sleeping. I don't mean that to scare anyone. Even low PPMs over long periods of exposure can be dangerous because it will accumulate in the blood stream.

Any appliance that burns fossil fuels (propane, oil, natural gas, kerosene, coal, ECT) are capable of producing lethal amounts of CO. Also, what's dangerous about CO is that you can't smell it. At least with coal, I could smell the sulfur in the exhaust when my chimney draft failed and because of that I knew I had a problem before the CO alarms sounded. I've seen readings of 30-75 PPM. I've since solved my chimney draft failure problem, but that's another story.

 
DENNIS BAUER
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 8:49 am
Location: Springwater NY, (Western NY)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105 - SOLD
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 30-95 - Garage
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HITZER 50-93 - HOUSE
Coal Size/Type: NUT
Other Heating: PROPANE FURNACE, ELECTIC BASE BOARD, AND WOOD FIRE PLACE

Post by DENNIS BAUER » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 10:16 am

Richard S. wrote:
Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:41 am
As mentioned it's CO and not CO2, the exposure required for CO gas to kill is measured in parts per million. It's a minuscule amount, something like 200PPM or more can be fatal. CO2 can kill as well but it's something like 12% before it will become fatal and fresh air is the cure. CO kills by bonding to the hemoglobin in your blood and it can no longer carry oxygen. If you were lying on the operating table in a trauma unit surrounded by 20 fully prepared physicians when you have had a high enough exposure to CO you are still dead.

CO2 has about half the specific gravity of "air" so it will pool in the lowest spot it can find. This is why it's dangerous to underground miners, people working in tanks, sewers etc. CO gas has nearly the same specific gravity as "air" and can easily travel along natural air currents disbursing throughout the house. Either can immediately incapacitate you if the exposure is high enough.

It's important to understand how a CO detector works. They do not necessarily go off when they detect CO. They have thresholds, if it measures X PPM for X time it will go off. As the PPM rises the time decreases and there is the one threshold that it will immediately set it off.

I'm not aware of any product that does this but they really need two alarms, one for something is wrong and another for get the hell out the house. Sans that get one with a readout so you know what is going on.
I knew I had the wrong one when I wrote it. Had a 50/50 shot. He has I believe 6 alarms in the house. 3 of them have read outs. One read out in the kids bedroom, one in the basement near the stove and one on the main floor in the living room. Non-read out ones he has spread around the house. So that part is covered.

 
DENNIS BAUER
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 8:49 am
Location: Springwater NY, (Western NY)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105 - SOLD
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 30-95 - Garage
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HITZER 50-93 - HOUSE
Coal Size/Type: NUT
Other Heating: PROPANE FURNACE, ELECTIC BASE BOARD, AND WOOD FIRE PLACE

Post by DENNIS BAUER » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 10:17 am

McGiever wrote:
Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:00 am
There has been, currently I 'm not sure. This has been discussed here in the archives...Search will bring some info.
Search for CO not CO2, Carbon Monoxide is CO ;)

At least a couple members here have built them for others, one being your's truly.
I started with the search but using the wrong terms might have been the issue.


 
Pacowy
Member
Posts: 3555
Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 10:24 am

Richard S. wrote:
Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:41 am
CO2 has about half the specific gravity of "air" so it will pool in the lowest spot it can find.
To avoid possible confusion, I think the specific gravity of a gas is normally measured as the ratio of the density (mass per unit volume) of the gas to the density of air. Measured this way, CO2 has a density (and specific gravity) about 50% higher than that of air, causing it to pool in low spots as described.

Mike

 
DENNIS BAUER
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 8:49 am
Location: Springwater NY, (Western NY)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105 - SOLD
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 30-95 - Garage
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HITZER 50-93 - HOUSE
Coal Size/Type: NUT
Other Heating: PROPANE FURNACE, ELECTIC BASE BOARD, AND WOOD FIRE PLACE

Post by DENNIS BAUER » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 10:26 am

Lightning wrote:
Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:18 am
I found this one. There may be others like it.

http://aerco.com/product/carbon-monoxide-detector
I can see how this would work to shut down the thermostat but no kill the stove completely unless I'm missing something.

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 11:08 am

I think you would need a hefty relay that the 120ac for the stoker ran thru.

Maybe McG could build one for you.

 
DENNIS BAUER
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 8:49 am
Location: Springwater NY, (Western NY)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105 - SOLD
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 30-95 - Garage
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HITZER 50-93 - HOUSE
Coal Size/Type: NUT
Other Heating: PROPANE FURNACE, ELECTIC BASE BOARD, AND WOOD FIRE PLACE

Post by DENNIS BAUER » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 11:19 am

McGiever wrote:
Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:00 am
There has been, currently I 'm not sure. This has been discussed here in the archives...Search will bring some info.
Search for CO not CO2, Carbon Monoxide is CO ;)

At least a couple members here have built them for others, one being your's truly.
I'm very interested in how it was built. We're both pretty good with this kind of stuff.
Any info would be great!

 
titleist1
Member
Posts: 5226
Joined: Wed. Nov. 14, 2007 4:06 pm

Post by titleist1 » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 12:36 pm

You would need a relay that takes 24VAC on the coil side and is capable of 120VAC and the current draw of the stoker on the relay side. You would want the relay wired so it is NC (normally closed). The coil side of the relay would be connected to the FAN connection on the CO monitor so it is a manual reset to re-power the stoker again. The ALARM contacts provide an automatic reset but I wouldn't think that is the way to go since the stoker may be off long enough to go out and then you would be just pushing unburned coal into the ash pan.

I would wire the relay to the hot wire side of a receptacle and plug the stoker into that receptacle. The CO monitor hits the configured set point, the coil on the relay is activated via the FAN contacts on the monitor and the relay trips removing 120VAC from the receptacle shutting down the stoker.

An example of this relay would be item 21GP31 on Grainger.com.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 17980
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 12:50 pm

I continue to be amazed by the people that install coal appliances with complete disregard for the manufacturer's instructions. It is a wonder that the stove ran as long as it did without an issue.

I expect the guys that have built this type of device before will be able to give you some details on the parts and wiring.

Also - your friend should make sure there is enough make up air available in the stove room, and that there are not and windows or vents close to the power vent (and nothing like a fence or hedge close to the power vent)....otherwise it is possible to pull fumes back into the home.

 
DENNIS BAUER
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 8:49 am
Location: Springwater NY, (Western NY)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105 - SOLD
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 30-95 - Garage
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HITZER 50-93 - HOUSE
Coal Size/Type: NUT
Other Heating: PROPANE FURNACE, ELECTIC BASE BOARD, AND WOOD FIRE PLACE

Post by DENNIS BAUER » Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 1:28 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 12:50 pm
I continue to be amazed by the people that install coal appliances with complete disregard for the manufacturer's instructions. It is a wonder that the stove ran as long as it did without an issue.

I expect the guys that have built this type of device before will be able to give you some details on the parts and wiring.

Also - your friend should make sure there is enough make up air available in the stove room, and that there are not and windows or vents close to the power vent (and nothing like a fence or hedge close to the power vent)....otherwise it is possible to pull fumes back into the home.
Side of house is clear and he made sure to go through and seal up any issues openings on house any where near the chimney. I do believe I have him convinced after all this to put up an actually chimney be it stainless or block.
Until then we need to get everything cleaned up so it will not be an issue till then.

 
User avatar
McGiever
Member
Posts: 10130
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Thu. Dec. 07, 2017 12:48 am

Lightning wrote:
Wed. Dec. 06, 2017 9:18 am
I found this one. There may be others like it.

http://aerco.com/product/carbon-monoxide-detector

Clickable link>>>> carbon-monoxide-detector found at a Fastenal near you


Post Reply

Return to “Stoker Coal Furnaces & Stoves Using Anthracite (Hot Air)”