Time for the Pros to Chime in PLESE

pacoalroller · Post by **pacoalroller** » Thu. Dec. 11, 2014 1:48 pm

Hello,
Before I get into my heating questions for all you pros out there. And, I mean men (or women) who have post stuff on this website and has made me extremely addicted to heating system other people have installed and or heating problems. On my sleepless night and time in the office I feel like I have read every post on here. and only have come to knowledge of this website within the past two weeks. Anyways I am a 26yr old male living in a small town called Summerhill, pa where winters are brutal and summers it rains everyday. at least it seem like that. I come from generations of underground coal miners. I myself worked 5 years in the underground coal mine 35 inch coal seam 10-12hrs a day 6-7 days a week. literally as low down and dirt as you could get. it has taught me very valuable lesson in life. Anyways long story short my grandfather own his own business and was looking to retire. So, I bought the business which is a parts business building and a 2 bay manual car wash. for as many years as he has own the building he has always heated it with coal.. up until about 3 years ago when he put the car wash in he tied the radiant heat floor in the car wash bays and equipment room to the existing coal boiler and added two more sections to the boiler. hoping and praying that the boiler would be big enough. well... snow melt applications like a car wash are a huge BTU sucker as I am sure you all know. ever since then every winter has been a struggle not to heat the car wash. but the building where the parts business is. so I am looking to upgrade boilers and make some major changed to the heating system. I would like to put in a hard coal stoker either keystoker or efm. But, not being knowledge enough to figure heat loss and all that fancy jazz you need to know for sizing a boiler. I want to properly invest my money in a heating system that will be somewhat automatic, cheap, and most important COAL. I recently bought a keystoker koker just for the large shop area to take some load off the coal boiler and more of an " instant"' heat instead of waiting on two large radiators to circulate I don't know how much cold water back to the boiler which, never where big enough for the shop from day one. the koker has helped the building out a lot. now some fact.

--national coal boiler 9 sections firebox dimensions 36" depth 20" wide
--keystoker koker 160,000btus

The parts building. total square footage 5,000 ceiling hight 15' and all block walls
2 zone- large shop area(heated with koker) and the other zone is the rest of the building
heated with large cast iron radiator

The car wash floor area heated is 1,000 square feet
we currently send 100 degree water thru the floor which has a mixing valve.

I guess some of my major questions are. should I eliminate the large cast iron radiators and reduce the amount of water being circulated? Because I feel the boiler we have is undersized and when thermostat calls for heat and all that cold or luke warm water gets back to the boiler it just sucks the life out of. so I need a fast recovery because I need to maintain correct water temp for the car wash to melt snow and ice.

I want to keep the koker to heat the large shop 2,200 square ft and install a new coal stoker for the car wash and the remaining building.

I don't want to keep rambling on with information that might be useless to this whole plan. But any input and information would be extremely helpful and if any of you stoker addicted need to know anything let me know. I need some major help!! THANKS

lzaharis · Post by **lzaharis** » Thu. Dec. 11, 2014 5:13 pm

pacoalroller wrote:Hello,
Before I get into my heating questions for all you pros out there. And, I mean men (or women) who have post stuff on this website and has made me extremely addicted to heating system other people have installed and or heating problems.

On my sleepless night and time in the office I feel like I have read every post on here. and only have come to knowledge of this website within the past two weeks. Anyways I am a 26yr old male living in a small town called Summerhill, Pa. where winters are brutal and summers it rains everyday. at least it seemed like that.

I come from generations of underground coal miners. I myself worked 5 years in the underground coal mine 35 inch coal seam 10-12hrs a day 6-7 days a week. literally as low down and dirt as you could get. it has taught me very valuable lesson in life.

Anyways long story short my grandfather own his own business and was looking to retire. So, I bought the business which is a parts business building and a 2 bay manual car wash. for as many years as he has owned the building he has always heated it with coal.

Up until about 3 years ago when he put the car wash in he tied the radiant heat floor in the car wash bays and equipment room to the existing coal boiler and added two more sections to the boiler. Hoping and praying that the boiler would be big enough. well... snow melt applications like a car wash are a huge BTU sucker as I am sure you all know. Ever since then, every winter has been a struggle not to heat the car wash. but the building where the parts business is.

So I am looking to upgrade boilers and make some major changed to the heating system. I would like to put in a hard coal stoker either keystoker or efm. But, not being knowledgeable enough to figure heat loss and all that fancy jazz you need to know for sizing a boiler. I want to properly invest my money in a heating system that will be somewhat automatic, cheap, and most important COAL. I recently bought a keystoker koker just for the large shop area to take some load off the coal boiler and more of an " instant"' heat instead of waiting on two large radiators to circulate I don't know how much cold water back to the boiler which, never where big enough for the shop from day one. the koker has helped the building out a lot. now some fact.

--national coal boiler 9 sections firebox dimensions 36" depth 20" wide
--keystoker koker 160,000btus

The parts building. total square footage 5,000 ceiling hight 15' and all block walls
2 zone- large shop area(heated with koker) and the other zone is the rest of the building
heated with large cast iron radiator

The car wash floor area heated is 1,000 square feet
we currently send 100 degree water thru the floor which has a mixing valve.

I guess some of my major questions are. should I eliminate the large cast iron radiators and reduce the amount of water being circulated? Because I feel the boiler we have is undersized and when thermostat calls for heat and all that cold or luke warm water gets back to the boiler it just sucks the life out of. so I need a fast recovery because I need to maintain correct water temp for the car wash to melt snow and ice.

I want to keep the koker to heat the large shop 2,200 square ft and install a new coal stoker for the car wash and the remaining building.

I don't want to keep rambling on with information that might be useless to this whole plan. But any input and information would be extremely helpful and if any of you stoker addicted need to know anything let me know. I need some major help!! THANKS

==================================================================================================

Trust me you are not rambling.

My being a retired hard rock miner speaks volumes to you.

Did you work in a long wall unit or room and pillar mine??
In my work I used and repaired Joy, J. H. Fletcher, Dosco,
Hewitt Robins, Continental, and Long Airdox conveyors, Wagner mining scoops and Stamler feeder breakers.

Can I assume you are using a "Monorail" Car wash with CAT three piston pumps???

Do you have a pit cleaner or do you contract with a septic pumper for pit cleaning??;

My father owned an 8 bay manual car wash with in floor heating
using antifreeze as the heat transfer medium.

I would not, I repeat not tear out the radiators as they are already heating the building.

If it were me; I would just replace the boiler and upgrade the plumbing with a single
stoker or stokers in series.

The sizing of the stoker is the simple issue for you.

Using the Keystoker brochure for hot water as an example:

The KB8 model has 163,000 net BTU available and 192,000 gross BTU and will provide
1,280 square feet of radiation using hot water.

BUT,

There is nothing saying that you could purchase a smaller unit and install a very
large hot water buffer tank to store hot water in the off hours for use later or to
maintain a proper floor temperature to melt snow and ice and use this same
preheated water to feed the boiler water for the two car wash wands used to
wash the vehicles.

The boiler would run flat out and burn all the time to keep the buffer tank hot and also
provide the hot water for the floor heat and preheated water for the car wash boiler water.

OR

The Keystoker folks have installed coal stokers in series for large demand loads in
laundries and green houses so they are very experienced with this and also in doing the work.

It all comes down to your wallet, you usable working capital and your accountant.

You have a continuous demand for hot water to heat the slab for ice and snow
melting. so a larger unit would also work for you as long as a mixing valve is
working properly to avoid the melting of the plastic pipe used to convey the
hot water heat through the slab and then return to the boiler.

I would call Don Somers and ask if they could visit your operation as they are
located in Schuylkill Haven, PA. 1-570-385-3873

Pacowy · Post by **Pacowy** » Thu. Dec. 11, 2014 5:51 pm

What are you burning in the National boiler? Any idea of the rating on that with the extra sections installed?

Mike

pacoalroller · Post by **pacoalroller** » Thu. Dec. 11, 2014 7:24 pm

I appreciate the replies so soon. I worked as a roof bolter operator we used fletcher twin booms on CATs. and we ran a continuous haulage unit. we ran 7 entrys so our bridge and moblies were long.. joy remote miner and our roof control plan allowed us to take 40ft lifts..pound the coal out. we cut in seam 35-38 inches because rock doesn't pay the bills my faceboss always said.. I don't use the coal boiler to actually heat the hot water in the wands, just the floor heat. and from the boiler to the equipment room I run 1 1/4" black iron pipe approx 80ft one way..the only pex tubing is what you see in the picture just going into the floor. basically with the keystoker koker and the boiler I have can meet the demand required. but how can I find out how many btus my current boiler actually produces? random. off the coal boiler there is a heat exchanger also because the one side for the car wash has glycol in the lines for freezing purposes. so knowing that my coal boiler now with the koker can manage the load while I am there feeding the monster not over night obviously. thats the problem because my shop is miles away I try to bank er off when I leave at 7 at night and then back to shop around 5-6ish. I just need something automatic.. if I can find a person to give me a rough idea of how many btus my boiler I have now I can decide on a unit to purchase. I really want a efm520 but I am honestly afraid it wont handle my rough estimate 125,000btu car wash load that is high demand and then 2800 sq ft shop with huge high volumes of water radiators. I simply want to replace the boiler I have and keep the koker just for the one shop area...soo unfortunately my wallet is open to make my shops heating system convenient which I honestly don't have a problem with that. because working half a day to build a good fire in my hand fired boiler for it to diminish to nothing over night and start all over again the next day. there isnt a dollar I wouldn't spend right now to walk into my shop first thing in the morning and see a nice cherry red fire and the boiler sitting at 180...and some of you might be thinking... well you are not putting enough coal on at night. lets put it this way..36" deep 20" wide and when I bank er off I got coal coming out the front door I aint scared of over heating it because I have the biggest dump zone in the world the car wash floor.. haha

windyhill4.2 · Post by **windyhill4.2** » Thu. Dec. 11, 2014 8:35 pm

While your doing an upgrade,why not get a big enough unit to do the hot water for the wash wands too ?? Probably a job for EFM 700 or 900

pacoalroller · Post by **pacoalroller** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 7:40 am

I would love to find an EFM 700 or 900 for my shop which I think would do the job. But, I don't know if its true or not you can not buy parts for them from EFM . and IF IF IF something went wrong would it be easy to find parts? although from what I hear and read those things are bullet proof... fed, lube, and walk away...

coldinmaine · Post by **coldinmaine** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 9:30 am

Don't be afraid of the Keystoker. A KD-12 has about 250K output and is very efficient. I have not seen a KD-12, but took a hard look at a KB-8....and these are built very well. I got lucky and acquired a used EFM 520 for a good price. There are many good rebuilt 520's in the range of 4k...2 of those would provide ample BTU. If you are looking for auger fed, the axeman anderson 260 would be a good choice too. you may want to upgrade to 1.5 or even 2 inch piping out of your new boiler to handle the load. 1.25 will only handle about 160k BTU, but 1.5 will handle 230K or so.

good luck on your project...I'm having fun with mine!

Post by **Rob R.** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 10:05 am

If I understand you correctly, the National hand-fed coal boiler will do the job during the day because you are there to add coal every few hours. How much coal does it burn in the 8-12 hrs that you are there? Your current coal consumption is an indicator of load.

Parts for the EFM 700 and 900 stokers are available used, and also from Mark's Supply. Parts for EFM 520's are plentiful.

Van Wert is another brand that should not be over looked. Parts are available brand new from A & B Stoker.

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 11:52 am

so what happens when your not there= shackled in with your coal shovel in hand?

you will still need to plan for backup in case you have solid fuel drama - so instead of a single large appliance you might be well served to consider several smaller with various fuel sources

AT least you will want a dial up temperature alarm to get you out of warm home bed

pacoalroller · Post by **pacoalroller** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 11:52 am

I will have to monitor the amount of coal I use in a 24hr period and get back to you. I cant say enough to all people for guiding me in the right direction THANK YOU!!

windyhill4.2 · Post by **windyhill4.2** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 12:19 pm

pacoalroller,how many times in the many yrs it was on duty did the boiler let the buildings go cold ???We have gotten so spoiled with the auto this & auto that ,we forget there was a time,a better time in this country's life when folks heated with coal,there was no oil or propain to "backup" the oil,COAL WAS THE HEAT. Nothing wrong with the idea of going to an auger fed stoker to make the heating system a bit easier for our current life but there is no reason to have to have ties to oil or propain when the coal burners are so rock solid & steady .

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 12:45 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:we forget there was a time,a better time in this country's life when folks heated with coal,there was no oil

Rockefeller called it "kerosene" it was for making light and heat

We also forget what it was like not to have electric lights - wanna go back to that too???

windyhill4.2 · Post by **windyhill4.2** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 12:50 pm

Coal heat is the future,not yet sure on the future of lighting ?

pacoalroller · Post by **pacoalroller** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 1:50 pm

I don't think I said one time about using oil or propane as a back up. I am a coal user and always will be. And, when you have a car wash that depends on heated floor for ice and snow melt. and heat in the equipment room with over $65,000 dollars in equipment that could freeze in the matter of hours on a cold Pennsylvania day if not caught in time. Maybe you can see my point and concern of going with a more "automatic" heating system with more constant temperatures. I am not lazy and don't mind hand firing a boiler but when that much money is on the line and one source of MY income monthly I want to make sure things are running smoothly so I can rest my head at night not worrying if things are going to be OK when I go to work in the morning. I don't have all the answer for my problems nor am a I heating expert. that is why I am on this form listening and taking in suggestions from other people that maybe have or had the same issue I am having. in a perfect world I would open my check book put in some heating system that is totally automatic with back up generators for when the power would go out if ever. set the thermostats and walk away. But, the problem is... I am not rich. just a young pup looking for suggestion to heat my place cheap and pain free.

windyhill4.2 · Post by **windyhill4.2** » Fri. Dec. 12, 2014 2:12 pm

pacoalroller, my post on oil & propain for backup was not directed at you but rather at comments another poster made. I am firmly committed to coal for heating our hot water (for 2 houses) & ALL the heat for 2 houses & our repair shop. Our main (& only) source of heat is coal ,a 1960 EFM520 which we fired up on Oct. 10,2014,we also have a Crane 404 in our concrete slabbed living room for the extra bone warming heat it displaces. My social skills do lack at times , especially my type written ones.

Time for the Pros to Chime in PLESE

Attachments