New to Forum - Heat Pumps Suck in PA

A Coal stoker furnace or stove controls most operations including automatically feeding the coal. They are quite similar to any conventional oil and gas units and easily operated for extended periods of time. They commonly use rice coal but may use larger sizes like buckwheat. They can be used as primary heat, supplementary heat or have a dual set up with your existing oil/gas furnace.
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volkoff
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Posts: 29
Joined: Sat. Jan. 25, 2014 9:49 am
Location: Loganton,PA

Post Sat. Jan. 25, 2014 11:41 pm

Hello, new guy here looking for some advice. Our house was built 7 yrs ago. We are about 2300-2500 sqft without future 1000 sqft finished basement. We have 1st floor all open kitchen/living area with cathedral ceilings about 23 ft at peak. The 1st floor is 1000 sqft. We have two large 5'x6' windows and a 7'x7' glass sliding patio door, and another 150 sqft of windows. All walls are 2 x 6 blown in cellulose insulation. Well the very efficient heat pump can not heat the house. It does very well as an AC unit in the summer but that is it. So, I want some damn heat in my house. I know I want hot water radiant for the first floor and I will tie into the duct work for the second floor. How do I do this?
1. Outdoor unit that burns coal and wood
2. Indoor unit in a separate "shed" coal and wood
3. indoor init that burns coal, wood pellets

I do not mind spending money on quality, if it is truly quality and not some marketing persons version of quality. I do not want to pay for bells and whistles that really have nothing to do with home heating. The basement will eventually be finished, so I don't want something that will be messy. Well just a few thoughts to get me started. Thanks in advance. Nick


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KLook
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Posts: 3631
Joined: Sun. Feb. 17, 2008 1:08 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Other Heating: Gas boiler backup/main
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000
Location: Chattanooga, Tenn

Post Sat. Jan. 25, 2014 11:49 pm

Hang on, you will get tons of info from this forum and you will be on your way. And welcome to the forum as well. :D
I will let the more experienced heat mechanics answer your questions and there will be several opinions battling back and forth to promote their "best" approach. Nevertheless, you will get answers here and no nonsense advice, you have come to the right place!
good luck and enjoy the ride.

Kevin

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McGiever
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Posts: 5997
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV

Post Sat. Jan. 25, 2014 11:52 pm

Welcome :) Your thinking is mighty fine I'd say, But what's this syht about wood?

Coal stoker boiler is the way to go. There are dual-fuel options too. Look at EFM for dual-fuel.
EFM used refurbed units can save a few dollars.
For a new model dual-fuel the Leisure Line WL 110 or it bigger brother AA 220 are hard to beat.

Let us know if a NON dual-fuel will work and then there is even more to see.
SLOW AND STEADY WINS THE RACE

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volkoff
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Posts: 29
Joined: Sat. Jan. 25, 2014 9:49 am
Location: Loganton,PA

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 12:22 am

At this point I am open to all suggestions. I just started looking into options. When is the best time to buy? I would guess spring/summer. Thanks for the very quick reply's. I look forward to hearing from everyone.

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McGiever
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Posts: 5997
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 1:11 am

Since your basement is not yet finished you can plan this all out so you create a boiler room with a coal bin based on ease of coal delivery and access to where you will build an all masonry chimney. :)
SLOW AND STEADY WINS THE RACE

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lowfog01
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Posts: 3895
Joined: Sat. Dec. 20, 2008 8:33 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Mark II & Mark I
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea
Location: Springfield, VA

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 3:35 am

McGiever wrote:Since your basement is not yet finished you can plan this all out so you create a boiler room with a coal bin based on ease of coal delivery and access to where you will build an all masonry chimney. :)
Wow - you are in a great position. Like McGiever said, you can start for scratch and do it right the first time. Me, personally, I would look at a coal boiler placed in an out building/shed. That way the dust of the coal burner is outside. To me that's the best of all worlds. Whatever, you've come to the right place for a variety of options and what not to do. Take care, Lisa
“The media class is the wall that we have to climb over for our voices to be heard. Once our voices are heard, then democracy will happen.” Andrew Breitbart.

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lsayre
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Posts: 12186
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)
Location: N/E Ohio, between Medina and Wadsworth

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 5:27 am

As to boilers, don't forget to look at an AHS S-130 or an AHS S-260 Coal Guns, or the Axeman-Anderson 130 or 260.
-Larry

Democracy rests upon the principle that collective wisdom arises from a pool of individual ignorance. A Republic rests squarely upon objective law, and fundamentally upon those laws which restrict the scope and actions of government.

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Freddy
Member
Posts: 6603
Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined
Location: Orrington, Maine

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 6:39 am

Welcome to the Forum! First thing, remember you did ask a coal forum, we might be a little bit biased. :)

Where are you located? Do you have natural gas go by your house? Location makes a big difference if you want to burn anthracite coal.

With your high ceiling and lots of glass you might not get enough baseboard to heat the place. Infloor radiant may be the best choice. It's time to do a heat loss study.
volkoff wrote: I want hot water radiant for the first floor and I will tie into the duct work for the second floor. How do I do this?
To have infloor radiant you'll staple up tubing from the basement, then insulate below it with foil at least 2 inches away from the tubes. Some use fiberglass with foil, others bubble wrap, some rigid board with foil. A water to air heat exchanger will make hot air for the upstairs.....but you might not need it.

I would never, ever, do an outdoor wood boiler because I do not have access to free wood. That is the only way they make financial sense. Even if you have free wood....yucccck. Plain & simple, they are time sucking stinkers. You will be loading them 3 or 4 times a day, and the smell of creosote will haunt you 24 hours a day.

A coal boiler in a insulated outside room can work but you will lose some BTU's. I have a coal boiler outside the house and the lost BTU's heat a garage. That can be tricky depending on local laws.

To set up in the basement for coal will take a chunk of floor space......maybe 12 by 18' for bin & boiler. With care it can be clean & efficient.
Orrington, Maine
Fred

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".


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windyhill4.2
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Posts: 5014
Joined: Fri. Nov. 22, 2013 2:17 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both
Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 8:06 am

Welcome,volkoff,so you found that heat pumps are for moderate climates as many others have.A boiler in your basement is the best choice as McGiever said.The Leisure Line AA220 is a dual burner unit,use 1 burner for summer DHW & chilly months,2 burners for cold weather.With a boiler,use a water to air heat exchanger in the duct work. You do NOT want to go with an outdoor wood boiler,and I say that because I am heating our 3 buildings & DHW with OWB since 2006 with one.We had free wood for a few years & lost that supply,we do not have the creosote & smell 24/7 as Freddy stated (He's biased :) ) BUT ,when you tend that outdoor unit & when it needs repaired,in the middle of the night,3*,30 mph winds,you WILL NOT be happy !! A unit in an outside well insulated shed is one possibility,but best place is in the basement. AGAIN DO NOT GO WITH AN OUTDOOR UNIT, UNLESS YOU ENJOY WORKING IN THE COLD & SNOW/ICE/WIND . If you live close to us you are welcome to stop by each morning for the next week & tend our unit at 4 A/M :)
David **** John14:6 Jesus saith unto him,"I am the way.the truth,and the life;no man cometh unto the father,but by me." Wise men sought for Jesus when he was born,wise men still seek Jesus today. Seek & you shall find.

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titleist1
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Posts: 4404
Joined: Wed. Nov. 14, 2007 4:06 pm
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite
Location: Cecil County, MD

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 8:23 am

Some thoughts....
Basement location for the stoker/boiler is best and the floor space it takes up doesn't have to be huge depending on the unit. 8' x 10' would be about the smallest footprint for a unit, piping, exhaust & walk around space. Walling off that area would still allow for the rest of the basement to be finished.

Coal storage is a big consideration. 1 ton takes up about 40 cuft. There are some good ideas & pictures in the coal bin thread for outside storage and delivering the coal to the inside. This can ease the concerns about coal dust inside.

Ashes will need to be taken out, so an outside entrance to the basement - preferably the boiler room, would make this easier.

Similar to the high efficiency oil/propane units I recommend having outside air piped to the combustion fan.

Plan on getting a manometer, CO monitors and temp gauges. Draft reading and temps are always asked for when someone has a question regarding the burn on their stoves/stokers.

Give a general location in your profile. Folks that have an install nearby may be willing to have you take a look at theirs to cherry pick some ideas.
I drive a VW TDI, heat my home & workshop with two coal stokers and have two vintage JD diesel tractors....
The EPA just loves me!!

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volkoff
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Posts: 29
Joined: Sat. Jan. 25, 2014 9:49 am
Location: Loganton,PA

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 9:13 am

Good morning, Wow you guys are good. Thanks for the advice, it all sounds great. I updated my location (Loganton,PA). I would like to hear some cost $$$ comments on the indoor units with new chimney (I do not have a chimney). I think I could build some sort of outdoor coal storage with easy access to stove. I have a 5' x 6' window that could be removed and a dry access created under our deck. Also as far as room for the indoor unit, would my existing indoor unit be replaced with the coal unit? I am not sure what portion of my indoor unit is doing the air conditioning. I am going to start looking at the brands you all have mentioned. I know I have a Harman and Leisure dealer close to home so I will visit them this week. Thanks again keep the info coming.

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tsb
Member
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed. Jul. 30, 2008 8:38 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II
Baseburners & Antiques: Grander Golden Oak , Glenwood # 6
Coal Size/Type: All of them
Location: Douglassville, Pa

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 9:36 am

I googled coal in your area and came up with about 28 responses.
Check with your local plumbing supply house for recommended plumbers
that do coal installations. Keep you current system for AC and shoulder months.
I've been through your area on the motorcycle and I'm sure there are flat hatters
that would love to build you a nice chimney. Good luck and keep us informed.
We love pictures too.
Coal -- It's not a hobby, It's an addiction.

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KLook
Member
Posts: 3631
Joined: Sun. Feb. 17, 2008 1:08 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Other Heating: Gas boiler backup/main
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000
Location: Chattanooga, Tenn

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 9:39 am

I will weigh back in and say since you are in the heart of coal country, there are many superb installs of ALL the kinds of furnaces/boilers within easy driving from you. There are some incredible setups for coal handling and ash removal. You should get some tremendous ideas as you are building from scratch. Type in some search ideas like coal bins, coal vacuum, pallet bags/skids, etc. and people luv to show off their setup. You will be impressed.

Kevin

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volkoff
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Posts: 29
Joined: Sat. Jan. 25, 2014 9:49 am
Location: Loganton,PA

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 9:45 am

I just looked at Axeman Andersonand they are about 25 min from me.

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lsayre
Member
Posts: 12186
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)
Location: N/E Ohio, between Medina and Wadsworth

Post Sun. Jan. 26, 2014 9:48 am

volkoff wrote:I just looked at Axeman Andersonand they are about 25 min from me.
The convenience of that would sell me.
-Larry

Democracy rests upon the principle that collective wisdom arises from a pool of individual ignorance. A Republic rests squarely upon objective law, and fundamentally upon those laws which restrict the scope and actions of government.


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