LL Pocono Blower Fans?? Run on High All the Time?

A Coal stoker furnace or stove controls most operations including automatically feeding the coal. They are quite similar to any conventional oil and gas units and easily operated for extended periods of time. They commonly use rice coal but may use larger sizes like buckwheat. They can be used as primary heat, supplementary heat or have a dual set up with your existing oil/gas furnace.
User avatar
Matthaus
Verified Business Rep.
Posts: 1929
Joined: Mon. Oct. 02, 2006 8:59 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite
Location: Wilkes Barre, PA

Post Wed. Dec. 26, 2007 10:09 pm

The max of 40 means 40 seconds stoker motor run time per 100, so at a FR of 40 that would be 40% of the max. Therefore a FR of 99 would be a 40 seconds per 100 if the max were set to 40.

The max should be set to achieve a full fire in the grate so that there is a inch or so of ash at the end of the grate. The min should be set to achieve a 1/2" or so width of fire on the grate, this will make sure the fire doesn't go out during idle mode (when the Tstat set point and room temp are equal). You can adjust the min and max in the settings menu. I usually adjust min first and then go to max, make sure you allow enough time in each mode for the fire to stabilize.

Thermostat placement is also a consideration, too far from the stove and you will get quite a bit of overshoot, too close and you will not have warm enough temps in the other part of the room (s). AS WNY said you can adjust the max to compensate for the amount of heat the unit puts out at max fire.

Enjoy the science project. :D
Matthaus
Leisure Line Stove Company
http://www.leisurelinestoves.com/


xackley
Member
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun. Oct. 07, 2007 10:57 am
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono
Location: Finger Lakes, NY

Post Wed. Dec. 26, 2007 11:57 pm

Really time to call the coal-trol people. Appears the fans are not be controlled as the designed it.

Unplug one fans as Paul suggested to see if it controls one fan at a time correctly. at fr around 8 (just turning on) it should be very slow.

Mathaus' description of the Min Max and FR is pretty much how Paul described it.

see this thread What Do Min Max Measure on the Coal-Trol?

User avatar
pvolcko
Verified Business Rep.
Posts: 1057
Joined: Mon. Jan. 16, 2006 4:26 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Contact:

Post Thu. Dec. 27, 2007 12:29 am

During the 20 minutes it is likely that the speed of the fans slowed down gradually to being off, at least they should have. In my prior post I mentioned that the fan speed will lag behind the feed rate. When you moved the thermo in front of the stove to force it to a lower feedrate the fan speed should have tracked about 15-25 minutes behind the feedrate. So, if it took 10 minutes for the feedrate to drop to zero then it would take upwards of 35 minutes before the fans turned off, during this time the speed should have gradually reduced. This delay on the fans is done because it takes time for the fuel on the grate to burn off and the heat of the stove body to be bled off.

As was said default MIN is 6 and MAX is 40. These defaults should serve you well enough for now. As you get used to the behavior of the stove and the burn grate you can start adjusting the MAX and MIN to tweak out a bit more performance, if you want.

Lastly, the description of what feedrate is was good. It is a percentage of the range defined by the MIN and MAX. MAX and MIN do not limit the numbers that can be shown in the FR readout, this number will be anywhere between 0 and 99 regardless of MIN and MAX settings. What MIN and MAX do is define what the 0 and 99 of FR translate into in terms of actual on time and off time for the stoker.

But back to your original question. It sounds like your fans are probably behaving normally. They were on at a medium to high speed (without knowing the history of the FR in the time prior to your reading of 50% it is difficult to know what speed the fans should have been running at). 20 minutes after the FR read 0 the fans turned off. If in that 20 minute period the fans ramped down gradually all is well. If they went from running at high speed directly to off, then there is a problem and you should call us.
Paul Volcko
Coal-Trol Digital http://www.coaltroldigital.com/

sauerzbr
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri. Dec. 07, 2007 5:03 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono Top Vent
Location: Cherryville, PA

Post Thu. Dec. 27, 2007 7:01 am

This weekend, I'll run through some tests and record data measurement readouts and timing of events. I've got the thermostat about 20' away from the stove and it's doing a great job of keeping the entire basement at a comfortable even temperature.

I'm also curious as to the amount of ash that should be at the end of the chute, mine has like 6", just guessing, but it's a good amount, I'll measure exactly this weekend.

Running with just one fan which is what I'm doing now, I'm not seeing any difference in the variance of blower speeds. Again, I'll babysit the unit and run it up high over an hour period and do the same on low and see if I can measure the blower speeds. Need one of those wind gauges from a sailboat!!!

Thanks everyone, I'll report back this weekend!

User avatar
coalstoves
Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri. Feb. 23, 2007 7:37 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman and Liberty
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnum and Victory 700
Location: Mt.Carmel Pa. Located on The Western Middle Anthracite Field

Post Thu. Dec. 27, 2007 1:04 pm

I think you have a problem alrighty

I've been here awhile and have never even seen anyone hint to a problem like this those controls seem to work pretty smooth and seldom set off uneasy feelings about their operation, the fact it is making you uneasy or suspicious is probably a good indication something's not right, if it was mine I would unhook the control and take a ride to LL and ask him for a replacement . They have them in stock for new units, let the pro's figure it out . If its okay it can be reinstalled on a different unit and then they can help you to figure why it didn't work the way you thought it should, you'd have peace of mind..
"No Fuel Like An Old Fuel"

sauerzbr
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri. Dec. 07, 2007 5:03 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono Top Vent
Location: Cherryville, PA

Post Thu. Dec. 27, 2007 5:26 pm

Did some more testing with holding the thermostat in front of the stove and after a good period of time, the stove blowers did slow down. Thermo was reading in the 90's for a long time before those blower even slowed a bit, FR had to be nothing for a long period of time. Just something I need to understand with this unit. My experience is with wood and oil stoves.

I also noticed that since I changed the max setting to 30, the coal in my ash pan was a finer grade compared to the lumpy ash I've been collecting. Is this because it's feeding less of the time and the coal is staying in the burn longer?

Overall, I am very happy with the performance of this unit! It does a GREAT job for what it was designed to do.

I just need to keep learning and with the help of all the GREAT people on this site, I might even be able to help others in the future.

Next is to pick up a ton of coal. $240 ton bagged just down the street... is that about right?

User avatar
av8r
Member
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu. Dec. 06, 2007 12:07 pm
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Hearth with twin turbos (sounds like it)
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hearth model with twin turbos
Location: Near Owego, NY

Post Thu. Dec. 27, 2007 5:48 pm

sauerzbr wrote:Did some more testing with holding the thermostat in front of the stove and after a good period of time, the stove blowers did slow down. Thermo was reading in the 90's for a long time before those blower even slowed a bit, FR had to be nothing for a long period of time. Just something I need to understand with this unit. My experience is with wood and oil stoves.

I also noticed that since I changed the max setting to 30, the coal in my ash pan was a finer grade compared to the lumpy ash I've been collecting. Is this because it's feeding less of the time and the coal is staying in the burn longer?

Overall, I am very happy with the performance of this unit! It does a GREAT job for what it was designed to do.

I just need to keep learning and with the help of all the GREAT people on this site, I might even be able to help others in the future.

Next is to pick up a ton of coal. $240 ton bagged just down the street... is that about right?
Glad to hear that the fans appear to be working as expected. You may want to contact the Automation Correct guys just to verify your findings.

Did someone here suggest you lower the max to 30? I ask as I'm seeing what appears to me to be a lot of not fully burned coal in my ashes. I'd estimate at least 10% and I'm wondering if I need to adjust the feedrates some. My stove has been mostly running at or just above idle with this warmer weather so I don't know if the coal burns more fully or not at idle.

As far as prices go...I pay about $211 bagged for oiled, low ash coal in 100 pound bags. It's a little more if I buy 50 pound bags. That is with me picking it up.
"Fools you are. To say you learn by your experience. I prefer to profit by others' mistakes and avoid the price of my own."

- Otto von Bismarck

sauerzbr
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri. Dec. 07, 2007 5:03 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono Top Vent
Location: Cherryville, PA

Post Thu. Dec. 27, 2007 6:15 pm

Nobody suggested I turn the max setting down to 30, just figured that I'd try to push less through and see what would happen. I had a pile of lumpy ash in the pan already, say 1/4 full and that was last night. Tonight when I went to down to do testing, figured I'd empty the pan while I'm waiting on results and that's when I noticed a pile of much finer ash on top of the stuff that was there last night. Guess it's a hit and miss thing, then I wonder what would happen if it was in a state where it had to run higher for long periods of time, then I think you would want more pushing down with a higher burn. I'm in a newer home, well insulated so I don't see this thing running hard at all..... I'm going to continue on 30 and monitor the ash size. Original ash seemed like same size as the coal I put in, just in a burned out state.


User avatar
pvolcko
Verified Business Rep.
Posts: 1057
Joined: Mon. Jan. 16, 2006 4:26 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Contact:

Post Thu. Dec. 27, 2007 6:42 pm

Glad to hear it is working correctly. :)

You can continue running with MAX of 30 if you like. A down side will be that the stove will not achieve maximum BTU output potential. On very cold days it may not be enough to keep up and it will take a bit longer to achieve setpoint changes to higher temperatures. If the stove is a 90KBTU stove and a MAX of 40 is a full grate of fire, then a MAX of 30 will result in a maximum burn rate of roughly 75% of the stove's 90KBTU potential, or about 68KBTU. Also, since the heat loss of the area being heated is not changed and the Coal-trol will seek the BTU output that matches the heat loss of the room at a given setpoint temperature, the Coal-trol will be forced to settle at a 25% higher FR value in order to compensate. If FR of 50 maintained 72 degrees before, a FR of 62 will be necessary now, assuming the same heating conditions. This means the fans will run faster for any given BTU output of the stove, which means slightly colder air (due to higher CFM) being pushed out of the stove than you would get with a properly set MAX.

As a general matter setting a lower MAX will not result in any change to the completeness of the burn or ash quality, assuming the original setting of 40 was not too high. For LL stoves 40 is a safe MAX setting that results in a full and complete burn at maximum feed rates.
Paul Volcko
Coal-Trol Digital http://www.coaltroldigital.com/

User avatar
av8r
Member
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu. Dec. 06, 2007 12:07 pm
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Hearth with twin turbos (sounds like it)
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hearth model with twin turbos
Location: Near Owego, NY

Post Thu. Dec. 27, 2007 6:49 pm

pvolcko wrote:Glad to hear it is working correctly. :)

You can continue running with MAX of 30 if you like. A down side will be that the stove will not achieve maximum BTU output potential. On very cold days it may not be enough to keep up and it will take a bit longer to achieve setpoint changes to higher temperatures. If the stove is a 90KBTU stove and a MAX of 40 is a full grate of fire, then a MAX of 30 will result in a maximum burn rate of roughly 75% of the stove's 90KBTU potential, or about 68KBTU. Also, since the heat loss of the area being heated is not changed and the Coal-trol will seek the BTU output that matches the heat loss of the room at a given setpoint temperature, the Coal-trol will be forced to settle at a 25% higher FR value in order to compensate. If FR of 50 maintained 72 degrees before, a FR of 62 will be necessary now, assuming the same heating conditions. This means the fans will run faster for any given BTU output of the stove, which means slightly colder air (due to higher CFM) being pushed out of the stove than you would get with a properly set MAX.

As a general matter setting a lower MAX will not result in any change to the completeness of the burn or ash quality, assuming the original setting of 40 was not too high. For LL stoves 40 is a safe MAX setting that results in a full and complete burn at maximum feed rates.
Thanks, Paul. It's highly unusual and very nice to have guys like you and Jerry on this forum. Great customer service. I know it pays back in spades.
"Fools you are. To say you learn by your experience. I prefer to profit by others' mistakes and avoid the price of my own."

- Otto von Bismarck

User avatar
coalstoves
Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri. Feb. 23, 2007 7:37 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman and Liberty
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnum and Victory 700
Location: Mt.Carmel Pa. Located on The Western Middle Anthracite Field

Post Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 1:48 am

sauerzbr wrote:Did some more testing with holding the thermostat in front of the stove and after a good period of time, the stove blowers did slow down. Thermo was reading in the 90's for a long time before those blower even slowed a bit, FR had to be nothing for a long period of time. Just something I need to understand with this unit.
That doesn't sound right to me
"No Fuel Like An Old Fuel"

sauerzbr
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri. Dec. 07, 2007 5:03 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono Top Vent
Location: Cherryville, PA

Post Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 6:59 am

Checked the stove this morning. I had set the temp set to 70 degrees overnight. Thermo read 70 degrees and the fans felt like they were running full blast. When the room is at set temp for a long period of time, is it normal for the fans to be on what seems to be a high speed? It was blowing nothing but cool air, didn't really feel any warmth to it. Didn't check the FR unfortunately..... I unplugged the one fan to cut down the air flow.

Weather conditions are on the warm side right now, not windy and the area is tight and doesn't experience quick changes to outside temperatures.

User avatar
WNY
Member
Posts: 5849
Joined: Mon. Nov. 14, 2005 8:40 am
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon
Location: Cuba, NY
Contact:

Post Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 7:24 am

My blowers slow down and bascially stop when the temp is satisfied and will turn on low if it needs heat, and go faster as needed depending on feed rate....mine run slow a lot of the time and I don't even know they are on. If the thermostat is satidfied, the blowers should stop after some time.

I would get a hold of LL or CoalTrol, somethings not right.
- Dave
Hyfire I & Keystoker 90K heating an 1890 Victorian
- Amsoil Authorized T1 Certified Dealer

User avatar
coalstoves
Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri. Feb. 23, 2007 7:37 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman and Liberty
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnum and Victory 700
Location: Mt.Carmel Pa. Located on The Western Middle Anthracite Field

Post Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 7:47 am

coalstoves wrote:
The fact it is making you uneasy or suspicious is probably a good indication something's not right, if it was mine I would unhook the control and take a ride to LL and ask him for a replacement .

They have them in stock for new units, let the pro's figure it out . If its okay it can be reinstalled on a different unit and then they can help you to figure why it didn't work the way you thought it should, you'd have peace of mind..
"No Fuel Like An Old Fuel"

User avatar
av8r
Member
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu. Dec. 06, 2007 12:07 pm
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Hearth with twin turbos (sounds like it)
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hearth model with twin turbos
Location: Near Owego, NY

Post Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 10:10 am

WNY wrote:My blowers slow down and bascially stop when the temp is satisfied and will turn on low if it needs heat, and go faster as needed depending on feed rate....mine run slow a lot of the time and I don't even know they are on. If the thermostat is satidfied, the blowers should stop after some time.

I would get a hold of LL or CoalTrol, somethings not right.
Agreed. My LL fan will run at a very low speed when within a degree or so of the set temp. The only time my fans run up high is when I've bumped up the set temp 2-3 degrees or for some reason the room temp drops several degrees.
"Fools you are. To say you learn by your experience. I prefer to profit by others' mistakes and avoid the price of my own."

- Otto von Bismarck


Post Reply

Return to “Stoker Coal Furnaces & Stoves Using Anthracite (Hot Air)”