Econo Stove Blower Problems

A Coal stoker furnace or stove controls most operations including automatically feeding the coal. They are quite similar to any conventional oil and gas units and easily operated for extended periods of time. They commonly use rice coal but may use larger sizes like buckwheat. They can be used as primary heat, supplementary heat or have a dual set up with your existing oil/gas furnace.
Johnshan
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Post Thu. Aug. 20, 2009 9:41 am

Is there any other reasoning besides the generator? I talked with some electrical engineers at work who tell me that the output from a generator is a pretty perfect sine wave.


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coaledsweat
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Post Thu. Aug. 20, 2009 9:50 am

Johnshan wrote:I talked with some electrical engineers at work who tell me that the output from a generator is a pretty perfect sine wave.
I think it depends on how the generator is wound or configured whether or not it is a true sine wave.
Nothing is impossible for people who don't have to do it themselves.

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Flyer5
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Post Tue. Oct. 13, 2009 6:32 pm

Johnshan wrote:Is there any other reasoning besides the generator? I talked with some electrical engineers at work who tell me that the output from a generator is a pretty perfect sine wave.


Not trying to knock anyone . A generator produces a DC output then is converted to a sine wave ,how well this is done is what determines the quality of the power.If it is done properly all is well . But the cheap gensets use cheap electronics as well that's where the problems come from . An alternator creates a true sine wave the frequency is controlled by either the # of poles and or the speed /RPM . I have seen and heard of the cheaper generators cause a lot of damage either over voltage or under voltage ,spikes and surges .Not saying this caused the problem or didn't but I don't think I would discredit it totally.Dave
http://www.leisurelinestove.com


You know when people say it was "better back in my day"?

They were right.

Johnshan
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Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Post Fri. Oct. 23, 2009 11:11 am

I am the guy with the generator who cant get the stove to run on it.

I have an O-scope and will be taking some readings from my generator tomorrow, I need to make sure I can run this stove on my gen.

My father runs an Alaska Channing on the same generator with no ill effects- I assume he has different motor types.

I think it is the nature of the cheap shaded pole motor, they just cant handle the modified waveforms as well as quality fans do.
Last edited by Johnshan on Fri. Oct. 23, 2009 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gambler
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Post Fri. Oct. 23, 2009 3:39 pm

Johnshan wrote: I assume he has different motor types.
I think it is the nature of the cheap shaded pole motor, they just cant handle the modified waveforms as well as quality fans do.


I will be willing to bet Alaska uses the same fans that LL uses.

I would also check the output of your fathers generator and compare to yours. Even though they are the same model, his may produce cleaner power. What brand of generator is it?
Take Care and God Bless
Rick

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Matthaus
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Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite
Location: Wilkes Barre, PA

Post Fri. Oct. 23, 2009 11:50 pm

Johnshan wrote:My father runs an Alaska Channing on the same generator with no ill effects- I assume he has different motor types.

I think it is the nature of the cheap shaded pole motor, they just cant handle the modified waveforms as well as quality fans do.


Virtually all stovemanufacturers use essentially the same shaded pole fan motors, either made by fasco (also produced with the dayton name) or AO Smith. The thing to remember is that the Coal-Trol uses an automatically controlled speed controller with electronic circuit board VS the rheostat that is used on the Alaska. This would be the key if there are power problems caused by the generator.

Running any stove that is controlled by a Coal-Trol on a generator can result in an issue of the power is not true sine and fairly clean. I would be interested to see what you find with the O-scope. Keep us posted, we always like a good science project! :D
Matthaus
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http://www.leisurelinestoves.com/

Johnshan
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Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Post Sat. Oct. 24, 2009 8:31 pm

Alright here it is, pretty rough waveform:

**Broken Image Link(s) Removed**

The generator is a Coleman Powermate, while it is a Coleman it has a good quality (Subaru) 10 hp engine.
Image

Everything else in the house works great. Time to build a filter or UPS system.

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Matthaus
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Location: Wilkes Barre, PA

Post Sat. Oct. 24, 2009 8:43 pm

WOAH! Tha O-Scope screen shot is not the power to be used with an electronic speed control (as is found in the Coal-trol), no wonder you had fan problems! The idea for a pure sine UPS is a good one, there are several threads on here with some good suggestions. Not everyone on here has access or the know how to read their generator output as you did, suffice to say folks be careful using any kind of inverter or generator to run your Coal-Trol!

Thanks Johnshan for sharing, very interesting. :)
Matthaus
Leisure Line Stove Company
http://www.leisurelinestoves.com/


Johnshan
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Post Sat. Oct. 24, 2009 11:12 pm

My understanding is that unless you purchase a VERY high end generator your likley to have a similar waveform. I will figure out a way to smooth this out.

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Rick 386
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work
Location: Royersford, Pa
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Post Wed. Oct. 28, 2009 9:26 pm

Hey Johnshan,

Did you ever get that generator straightened out ????

Rick
Master of "Trial and Error."

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WNY
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Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
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Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon
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Post Thu. Oct. 29, 2009 7:55 am

I plugged my keystoker into my generator, no problems, no noise, seemed to work just fine. Will test the Hyfire with Coaltrol once I fire it up to see what it does.
- Dave
Hyfire I & Keystoker 90K heating an 1890 Victorian
- Amsoil Authorized T1 Certified Dealer

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Rick 386
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work
Location: Royersford, Pa
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Post Thu. Oct. 29, 2009 2:55 pm

WNY,

Last year we had an outage. I fired up the Troy Built Generator. In our house I have a generator panel which has the AA 260 ,well pump, etc. connected to it. Across the driveway I ran an extension cord to the sister in law's Alaska Cast Console with the original Alaska controls. I think it fried the stoker motor. Shortly after that day, she started having problems. We eventually replaced the motor under warrany I think. But all of these threads got me a thinkin'........ :gee:

Rick
Master of "Trial and Error."

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WNY
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Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
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Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon
Location: Cuba, NY
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Post Thu. Oct. 29, 2009 3:46 pm

Thanks!
I will check....also, the keystoker motors all run 100%, there is no rheostats on them, so with the generator, that might be okay, but when you start slowing them down with rheostat, that might be a problem with some generators? not sure, but doesn't hurt to test them. Like with the coaltrol, it varies the convection motors, if I have to, I will plug them in direct so as not to burn them out if it becomes a problem.
- Dave
Hyfire I & Keystoker 90K heating an 1890 Victorian
- Amsoil Authorized T1 Certified Dealer

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Rick 386
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Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon. Jan. 28, 2008 4:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work
Location: Royersford, Pa
Contact:

Post Thu. Oct. 29, 2009 4:09 pm

Hmmmm.......

Never thought about the use of the rheostat slowing them down to maybe a problem speed. :doh:

You know THAT could be the whole problem with using generators. Those stinking rheostats. Now if only I knew someone with an oscilloscope that could check my generator's output with and without the use of rheostats. Just something else to think about ..................

Rick
Master of "Trial and Error."

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coal berner
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Stoker Coal Boiler: 1986 Electric Furnace Man 520 DF
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Stove/Furnace Model: DF520
Location: Pottsville PA. Schuylkill County PA. The Hart Of Anthracite Coal Country.

Post Thu. Oct. 29, 2009 4:35 pm

Matthaus wrote:
Johnshan wrote:My father runs an Alaska Channing on the same generator with no ill effects- I assume he has different motor types.

I think it is the nature of the cheap shaded pole motor, they just cant handle the modified waveforms as well as quality fans do.


Virtually all stovemanufacturers use essentially the same shaded pole fan motors, either made by fasco (also produced with the dayton name) or AO Smith. The thing to remember is that the Coal-Trol uses an automatically controlled speed controller with electronic circuit board VS the rheostat that is used on the Alaska. This would be the key if there are power problems caused by the generator.

Running any stove that is controlled by a Coal-Trol on a generator can result in an issue of the power is not true sine and fairly clean. I would be interested to see what you find with the O-scope. Keep us posted, we always like a good science project! :D

Jakel motor inc . was another one Alaska was using a few years ago until Fasco bought them out .
Not sure about fasco owning AO smith motors Emerson motor Co. Owned Dayton motor there was a recall in 99 2000
first link below

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml01/01504.html

http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/c ... any=317756
**Broken Link(s) Removed**

J.C.

Heating house & water with a 1986 electric furnace man DF520 using buckwheat Anthracite coal


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