Chimney sweep came out today.

 
Hoytman
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. Sep. 29, 2020 5:51 pm

I had scheduled for the chimney sweep to come out today.

A little background information...
I knew I had at least one broken clay liner just above the thimble and I needed to know or wanted to know how many more might be broken.

Since I am burning coal, and have talked with many chimney sweeps on different Internet forums who have given me conflicting information, I did some research for a CSIA certified Master Chimney sweep. I finally located a local Master Sweep that I knew would have many years experience that could possibly have knowledge of coal stoves/chimney’s and servicing them. Fat chance!!!!!!! LOL!!!

Just as soon as those folks found out I burned coal I heard the Master Sweep tell his receptionist that we don’t clean coal chimneys and for me to call someone else, and they recommended another local sweep (no master sweep on this crew), which I thought was interesting. I tried to tell them the difference between dirty coal and clean coal, but he wasn’t having it. Red flag!!!

1. A master sweep didn’t want the job it seemed.

2. Didn’t know the difference between dirty coal and clean coal.

3. Wasn’t willing to let me explain. Hmmmnnn...

The company they recommended was actually closer to me and the year prior I had briefly met and spoke with the owner who was doing a job local to me, so I had no issue with calling them and asking for services.

So today, the owner sent out two technicians. Just as soon as he walked in the door he brought up the fact that he is told by his boss that when he sees a clay liner to always recommend a Stainless Steel liner. That’s when the coal discussion started. As any hill hugger and coon hunter knows...when the tailgate drops, the BS stops. LOL! From there the conversation and inspection began.

I had already swept the stove out last spring, so he didn’t have to clean that. He climbed up there took some pictures and ran the camera down the gullet and jumped back down (not really) and came back inside the house. Upon entering he was shaking his head and smiling and immediately started asking me questions about the stove and the coal. 😂😂😂

I told him about our coalpail forum 👍👍👍 as much as I could about the coal, showing him the coal, pictures of the coal, the coal burning, the stove temps, the wall temps, the pipe temps, my hand in the pipe, my hand on the top of my stove, etc., etc. You know where this is going.😂😂 He kept asking and I kept answering. 😂😂🥱🥱🥱 He wanted to know about the start up procedure, the running and tending procedures, the Hitzer stoves, the bi-metallic thermostat, how much a bag of coal cost, how long it lasted, etc. I was beginning to think that maybe I should be charging them for my time. 😉

So finally, after nearly two (2) hours of discussion, I asked the guy how much the damage was and he looked at me and said, “nothing”. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🥴🥴 I said, come one now the estimate was for $289. He said, your stove was clean already, and your chimney was clean as a whistle. Just a little fine gray colored ash he said, not even enough for him to try and sweep. Actually only enough of I get his fingers dirty. He showed me the pictures and he was right. Needless to say I was stoked...pun intended. 😂😂 (Of course, I already knew it was clean because I had been up there, but had not swept it.) I still figured they’d charge for the use of the camera.

He’s wanting to check into a anthracite stove for his own house now. Couldn’t believe it was cheaper than a pellet stove. Best of all, I had pictures and receipts to prove it all to him.

He had been with the company 9 years and this was his first coal stove/chimney job.

Another one converted...and a chimney sweep at that. 👍👍👍👍👍


 
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nepacoal
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Post by nepacoal » Tue. Sep. 29, 2020 6:04 pm

Yep, chimneys used for coal stay pretty clean. The chimney for our EFM 520 hasn't needed any cleaning in 56 years... Just light dusting of flyash after all those years.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Oct. 01, 2020 8:51 am

Hoytman wrote:
Tue. Sep. 29, 2020 5:51 pm

I knew I had at least one broken clay liner just above the thimble and I needed to know or wanted to know how many more might be broken.
So, did it turn out the tile was not broken?

 
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Post by warminmn » Thu. Oct. 01, 2020 8:58 am

Neat story. I was not expecting that ending!

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Oct. 01, 2020 10:28 am

Rob R. wrote:
Thu. Oct. 01, 2020 8:51 am
So, did it turn out the tile was not broken?
Sorry...in editing I somehow deleted that information.

Yes. The tile above the thimble was broken and I was already aware of that, but also said I have two more above the first one that was cracked. So apparently the three tiles above the thimble are cracked. He showed me pictures, but I've already forgotten what they looked like so he's emailing me the pictures.

However, since the stove only needs one hot wood fire in it to get the coal going, and being that the stove pipe runs so cool, he said that I was good to go for the winter. I had told him next spring I'd let them slip cast the liner with Heatshield, or put in a liner (I never specified to him what I had planned...putting my own new clay liners in), and I am waiting on some estimates to add two to three feet to both chimneys and brick work as well.

He added that if we Heatshield the clay liner that even with a 6" outlet stove, I would still be fine with the 8" liner. I thought that was odd because most of these guys want to keep the same size all the way to the top for optimal draft.

Apparently that Heatshield must do a good job reflecting heat for them not to want to reduce the chimney size to 6". Other sweeps have been adamant about reducing the 8" size. However, my argument has been what happens if I decide to burn wood again (which is highly unlikely but not impossible) and want to install a Blaze King King model that has an 8" stove outlet? Of course the answer is I have to pay again to re-do the chimney...and that is absurd. Honestly, I think most sweeps create a lot of added expense for a customer in the long haul should they ever change stoves and they create a lot of job security for themselves.

This technician has been with this company 9 years. He said most people don't do the research that I have...and of course that keeps them honest.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Oct. 01, 2020 10:31 am

Hoytman wrote:
Thu. Oct. 01, 2020 10:28 am
Sorry...in editing I somehow deleted that information.

Yes. The tile above the thimble was broken and I was already aware of that, but also said I have two more above the first one that was cracked. So apparently the three tiles above the thimble are cracked. He showed me pictures, but I've already forgotten what they looked like so he's emailing me the pictures.

However, since the stove only needs one hot wood fire in it to get the coal going, and being that the stove pipe runs so cool, he said that I was good to go for the winter. He understood I have no plans of burning wood this winter because I like to season my wood for three years before burning it and it's not all ready yet. (Plus, it's going to be sold for more coal.) I had told him next spring I'd let them slip cast the liner with Heatshield, or put in a liner (I never specified to him what I had planned...putting my own new clay liners in), and I am waiting on some estimates to add two to three feet to both chimneys and brick work as well.

He added that if we Heatshield the clay liner that even with a 6" outlet stove, I would still be fine with the 8" liner. I thought that was odd because most of these guys want to keep the same size all the way to the top for optimal draft.

Apparently that Heatshield must do a good job reflecting heat for them not to want to reduce the chimney size to 6". Other sweeps have been adamant about reducing the 8" size. However, my argument has been what happens if I decide to burn wood again (which is highly unlikely but not impossible) and want to install a Blaze King King model that has an 8" stove outlet? Of course the answer is I have to pay again to re-do the chimney...and that is absurd. Honestly, I think most sweeps create a lot of added expense for a customer in the long haul should they ever change stoves and they create a lot of job security for themselves.

This technician has been with this company 9 years. He said most people don't do the research that I have...and of course that keeps them honest.

 
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Post by coalkirk » Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 7:37 am

Certified chimney sweeps inspect to NFPA211. Cracked tiles are supposed to trigger the installation of a metal liner. It really only matters for wood fires in my opinion but that's the rule. Sweeps make $150.00 to do a cleaning but can make several thousand installing a liner. Most sweeps never met a flue that didn't need a new liner.


 
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 7:58 am

Some sweeps have a system that allows them to drop some kind of wand down the flue and spray a repair compound on cracks or empty motor joints. I have seen it at home shows. Might be worth calling around and seeing if someone can repair your cracked tiles.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 10:04 am

coalkirk wrote:
Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 7:37 am
Certified chimney sweeps inspect to NFPA211. Cracked tiles are supposed to trigger the installation of a metal liner. It really only matters for wood fires in my opinion but that's the rule. Sweeps make $150.00 to do a cleaning but can make several thousand installing a liner. Most sweeps never met a flue that didn't need a new liner.
Show me where NFPA211 says that "cracked tiles are supposed to trigger the installation of a metal liner."

I'm not being argumentative, and am asking for the information because I have looked on my own and have not found it...even in the Ohio Revised Code which has to meet or exceed the NFPA211. I even called a tile company in Columbus, Ohio, Sandkuhl was the name, and the told the lady what other sweeps online had been telling me, and the lady laughed and said she'd be out of business if her product couldn't be used in new construction AND to re-line an existing masonry chimney...both of which sweeps tried to tell me were illegal. NFPA211 is the standard others have to meet, and to my knowledge it has the final say, but it is not the end all. There are other agencies like ASTM that these products must meet. I don't understand it all, but upon reading the Ohio Revised Code, everything the lady at the tile company seems to be true, and most of what sweeps have been telling me is so they "can make several thousand installing a liner". It isn't any wonder that "Most sweeps never met a flue that didn't need a new liner". Obviously, the sweep that came to my house confirmed what the lady at the tile company and my own research was telling me...they don't have to always put in a liner, but they do. Why not, it's job security for them. They can do anything they want when people aren't informed.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 10:09 am

Rob R. wrote:
Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 7:58 am
Some sweeps have a system that allows them to drop some kind of wand down the flue and spray a repair compound on cracks or empty motor joints. I have seen it at home shows. Might be worth calling around and seeing if someone can repair your cracked tiles.
This is interesting. Never heard of this. Worth checking into. Unless it's similar to the Heatshield...they also have a spray on expanding foam refractory that is super-duty rated for open fire places for this very purpose. Sort of the same thing as the regular Heatshield product, but it's hard to slip cast a large open fireplace opening. Just spray it on...scroll all the way to the bottom of this page ... https://heatshieldchimney.com/smoke-chamber-repair/

 
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Post by McGiever » Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 10:50 am

Mr. Sweep,
What is the definition of "a cracked clay tile" ?

What if a crack has NOT any missing pieces and is intact?

Are there ANY of these identified "cracks" that do NOT affect the functionally of the tile"?

Does any printed code have definition of what a clay tile liner "crack" is?

 
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Post by Hoytman » Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 11:02 am

McGiever wrote:
Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 10:50 am
Mr. Sweep,
What is the definition of "a cracked clay tile" ?

What if a crack has NOT any missing pieces and is intact?

Are there ANY of these identified "cracks" that do NOT affect the functionally of the tile"?

Does any printed code have definition of what a clay tile liner "crack" is?
These are all good questions to ask, Larry. Unfortunately, I did not ask those questions. I suppose I can still ask them though, and I will just to see what they say. Thanks!

 
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Post by coalkirk » Sat. Oct. 03, 2020 7:48 am

Hoytman wrote:
Fri. Oct. 02, 2020 10:04 am
Show me where NFPA211 says that "cracked tiles are supposed to trigger the installation of a metal liner."

I'm not being argumentative, and am asking for the information because I have looked on my own and have not found it...even in the Ohio Revised Code which has to meet or exceed the NFPA211. I even called a tile company in Columbus, Ohio, Sandkuhl was the name, and the told the lady what other sweeps online had been telling me, and the lady laughed and said she'd be out of business if her product couldn't be used in new construction AND to re-line an existing masonry chimney...both of which sweeps tried to tell me were illegal. NFPA211 is the standard others have to meet, and to my knowledge it has the final say, but it is not the end all. There are other agencies like ASTM that these products must meet. I don't understand it all, but upon reading the Ohio Revised Code, everything the lady at the tile company seems to be true, and most of what sweeps have been telling me is so they "can make several thousand installing a liner". It isn't any wonder that "Most sweeps never met a flue that didn't need a new liner". Obviously, the sweep that came to my house confirmed what the lady at the tile company and my own research was telling me...they don't have to always put in a liner, but they do. Why not, it's job security for them. They can do anything they want when people aren't informed.
I don't have a current copy of NFPA211 but it has always been my understanding that a level lll inspection per that code requires a metal liner if there are cracks in the terra cotta. I'm not saying I agree with that.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Sat. Oct. 03, 2020 9:10 am

I had a level one inspection done. I gave the go ahead to go to level two if need be. Apparently they didn’t think there was a need for a level two...which is crawling into the attic and crawl spaces to further inspect the chimney. I have forgotten what a level III entails, but I believe that requires tearing into the chimney and hearth walls for further inspection for clearances, cracks, checking creosote between liner and masonry, etc., I think but am not sure. Let’s just say a level 3 requires some extensive rebuilding once they start tearing things apart. I was hoping not to have to go that far and I’m glad I didn’t need anymore than they did. Lots of money saved.

 
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Post by McGiever » Sat. Oct. 03, 2020 10:42 am

What is a code definition of a crack???

Seen cracks you could put your thumb in and yet others that wouldn't catch a finger nail scratch.


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