Venezuela Blackout

 
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BigBarney
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Post by BigBarney » Fri. Mar. 15, 2019 4:48 pm

They are on hot backup and are online just with not

output until needed in peak demand , after all the less

expensive power is used , they still in this state produce

some power but they follow the price curve as far as full

output.

BigBarney


 
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warminmn
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Post by warminmn » Fri. Mar. 15, 2019 5:14 pm

BigBarney wrote:
Fri. Mar. 15, 2019 3:27 pm
Point of all your information is to never be placed in a

situation where you rely on one source of energy and it's

delivery . They have proposed a new underground trans-

mission line from the Iowa windfarms to the grid near

Chicago IL to the PJM so as to use this renewable resource

to power the PJM grid , and I'm all for more diversity of

our power supply.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-io ... story.html

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/independent-deve ... ng/550399/

Keep even a few subsidized plants just for an emergency ,

but keep going ahead with cheaper and cleaner sources .

BigBarney
Build the damned things in Chicago or on Lake Michigan. plenty of wind in either place, and no electric loss thru the lines. Then i dont have to look at the ugly things here to power that shitty city. Got enough of that going on here now.

 
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Post by McGiever » Fri. Mar. 15, 2019 9:34 pm

Richard S. wrote:
Fri. Mar. 15, 2019 3:40 pm
There is no keeping a "few", when the wind is not blowing and sun isn't shining you need to fully meet power demand or you will have a power failure. Period, no discussion about it. Those systems are absolutely irrelevant where reliability is concerned.
We are talking about a blackout here, that is quite different than the normal day to day.

A little splash of renewables might come in handy during the day times and windy periods on a fragmented grid.

But no one would be forced to use it if they have strong convictions opposing such. ;)

 
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Post by LeoinRI » Sat. Mar. 16, 2019 7:24 am

We had an interesting incident here in RI which demonstrated the frailty of the natural gas system. The supply of gas was cut off to the city of Newport & Middletown. A faulty valve in Massachusetts caused the pressure to drop below minimums in the 1/4 lb gas system supplying about 8000 customers. Fearing explosions from leaking gas from people who had appliances without safety pilots, National Grid shut the 1/4 lb system down. All meters had to be shut off by a technician (no self help allowed), then all customers' pilots lit before meters were turned on individually. Some folks with meters inside the house were away so a locksmith and cop had to accompany technicians for both shutoff/re-light slowing the process down. It took about a week before the system was back to normal. This of course happened with temperatures in single digits.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Mar. 16, 2019 9:27 am

That NG "frailty" is happening all across the country.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/ ... as/570361/

Every form of fuel, or energy source is flawed in some way. If there was one far better than all the rest, everyone would be using it by now.

But, the alternative is,..... who wants to sit in the dark and freeze ?

Paul

 
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Post by Richard S. » Sat. Mar. 16, 2019 8:08 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
Sat. Mar. 16, 2019 9:27 am
That NG "frailty" is happening all across the country.
Th aging system are the half of of it, the bigger issue is the supply because of limited infrastructure required to carry it. Back in 2014 they were at the limit. The same people advocating for closing down coal plants will be the same ones protesting new pipelines. As a temporary solution until the infrastructure catches up a lot of Northeast plants can now run on diesel.

 
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Post by lincolnmania » Sat. Mar. 16, 2019 8:14 pm

sucks about venezuela being in the dark. if it happens here we are gonna have nuke plants melting down once the diesel fuel runs out.

big natural gas pipeline projects down here and a new natural gas fired power plant in birdsboro where the armorcast plant used to be. they ran a pipeline a few hundred yards from my house but no natural gas hookups for my area. kind of stupid if you ask me when we got all that waste coal that was left on the surface.


 
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Post by gardener » Mon. Mar. 25, 2019 12:54 pm

warminmn wrote:
Thu. Mar. 14, 2019 2:33 pm
Or they create a limited supply illusion so they can start gouging, like oil has been doing for decades. Im unsure if we will ever get to the 80% mark though, but I do not have the present figures in front of me, so it may be possible.

We are extremely unprepared as a nation for any type of huge electrical problem. Dont be thinking generators are the answer if it becomes long term. Its much better to be able to live without any type of power or assistance. Hunting only lasts so long cuz thats what all the unprepared will be doing, and soon the game is gone.
When electrical supply was deregulated, starting out west, wasn't there rolling blackouts in California? back in the 1990s?
I seem to recall suppliers were investigated and found a few brokers manufactured a supply bottle neck in order to raise their prices. Fading memories.

 
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Post by gardener » Mon. Mar. 25, 2019 12:58 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:
Thu. Mar. 14, 2019 10:22 am
Don't even need an EMP to take the grid down...
There are about 15 critical junction/transformer locations...
Not highly secured...
Take them out and you still have all the cars and electronics...
Won't have power but the vast majority of items will still work after you apply power again...
Same with cars trucks and trains...
It wo't be an external attack but an internal one...
Think about it some...
Was it like 2004 or around there? was a some sort of local burn out in northeastern Ohio that caused a week long blackout through parts of PA, much of NY, and surrounding states and into Canada.

 
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Post by oros35 » Mon. Mar. 25, 2019 1:01 pm

lincolnmania wrote:
Sat. Mar. 16, 2019 8:14 pm
. if it happens here we are gonna have nuke plants melting down once the diesel fuel runs out.
Not true. 1 Week supply of Diesel on site. So you have some time to get fuel. I'm sure it would be a priority for the military to supply the Nukes.

And if that didn't work, there are steam turbine driven pumps installed that provide cooling to the plant in a blackout situation. Needs no electric to provide core cooling.

And on top of that, the national FLEX system that was put in place after Fukashima. Equipment staged in secure bunkers for beyond design basis accidents.

Could there be problems, yes. But there are measures in place, defense in depth as it's called in the nuclear world. You don't rely on one system for safety related functions.

 
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Post by gardener » Mon. Mar. 25, 2019 1:02 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:
Thu. Mar. 14, 2019 10:22 am
Don't even need an EMP to take the grid down...
There are about 15 critical junction/transformer locations...
Not highly secured...
Take them out and you still have all the cars and electronics...
Won't have power but the vast majority of items will still work after you apply power again...
Same with cars trucks and trains...
It wo't be an external attack but an internal one...
Think about it some...
I get computers and the like will get fried by and EMP,
but are pumps for gas lines and water lines affected by EMP?

 
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Post by gardener » Mon. Mar. 25, 2019 1:12 pm

lsayre wrote:
Thu. Mar. 14, 2019 2:00 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if right around (or not long after) the time that we achieve 80% of our nations electricity from NG, the fracked NG supply peaks and goes into a prolonged but terminal decline.
Is that a industry goal? I haven't heard that before.
I thought natural gas electric generators were being installed to cover peak electrical demands. I saw the stations go in all over OH, KY, IN about a decade ago.

Was in 2014? that we had some cold days in the deep of winter, and on the news reported the electrical grid came close to having to implement rolling blackouts due to the load. The newest EPA regulations had caused so many coal fired power plants to close there were few aging plants that were left to be turned on to meet peak demands. Further talk about how the newest EPA regulations were at the time set to be incrementally ratcheted tighter and more coal plants were scheduled to close the following two years. Wonder if the Trump administration unraveling the Obama administration's EPA regulations caused coal plants to reopen?

oops nevermind I see Richard S. already made this remark
Richard S. wrote:Th aging system are the half of of it, the bigger issue is the supply because of limited infrastructure required to carry it. Back in 2014 they were at the limit. The same people advocating for closing down coal plants will be the same ones protesting new pipelines. As a temporary solution until the infrastructure catches up a lot of Northeast plants can now run on diesel.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Mar. 25, 2019 8:49 pm

I get computers and the like will get fried by and EMP,
but are pumps for gas lines and water lines affected by EMP?
The control systems for the pumps are...
If it has a chip...
And it is not caged...
It is toast...

 
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Post by oros35 » Thu. Mar. 28, 2019 1:05 pm

gardener wrote:
Mon. Mar. 25, 2019 1:12 pm
Is that a industry goal? I haven't heard that before.
It's not a goal, it is the reality if left unchecked by the regulators. For every coal and nuke that shuts down, it is being replaced by natural gas. At the rate we are going, it wont belong till we hit 80%.

 
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Post by lsayre » Thu. Mar. 28, 2019 5:19 pm

oros35 wrote:
Thu. Mar. 28, 2019 1:05 pm
It's not a goal, it is the reality if left unchecked by the regulators. For every coal and nuke that shuts down, it is being replaced by natural gas. At the rate we are going, it wont belong till we hit 80%.
Both of the Ohio nuclear plants that reside along the shore of Lake Erie are slated to be converted over to natural gas.


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