Coal Power Plants

 
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CoalJockey
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Post by CoalJockey » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Barney, I am specifically asking you two questions... I don’t care if you answer them or not. But if you choose not to answer them then everyone following this and the EV thread will clearly see you have chosen not to and will likely question you motives a bit. And I do not feel these are very personal questions. I fully expect you to dance right around them and ignore my questions as you did in the EV post by throwing up a link to another article further describing your perfect electrical plan.

#1.... What background and experience do you have in these subjects you are providing all the links to? Are you an electrical engineer by trade or some kind of research analyst? Enlighten us. What are your credentials that makes your line of thinking on these subjects so superior that you constantly push this.... even after you have clearly lost everyone else.

#2 — Do YOU personally own an EV car?

Anyone can spend all afternoon on Google and search for propaganda to support ones own slanted views and then post it here for everyone under the sun to read that doesn’t really care... myself and others would be happy to hear your credentials. A coal forum of all places is probably the last place I would try to push this nonsense but whatever.


 
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Post by Dave 1234 » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 6:38 pm

CJ, You are being very practical . I have worked in the power distribution industry for over 35 years. AFAIK it gets dark every night.
But the real issue is ppl need power round the clock all year long. Our power plants are efficent when operating under a steady demand. Spikes in production works well for making baled hay, but not with an unstorable product like electricity. It's been tried many times for many years. ..... Never panned out.

Dave

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 7:05 pm

Thanks Dave, and thank you for testifying to your years of experience. Maybe someone here will listen but I doubt it.

I hope I am being practical... I will state once again for the record that I am in no way against anything efficient or renewable.

However you slice it, when you consider this Country's demand for energy, the time is not now to throw out the reliable, tried and true. As Rob pointed out coal will continue to be a reliable and cheap energy source, as well as diesel fuel.

Barney, how ya coming with those questions bud?

 
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Post by titleist1 » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 7:27 pm

CJ....I am pretty sure he said he owns a Chevy Bolt....

Like I said before, I hope solar does get cheaper because I would like to put some panels on the roof and be less dependent on the grid. But right now the pay back here for a 4kw system that will fit on my south facing roof is too long to justify it and that is a system without a battery bank.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 8:00 pm

as well as diesel fuel.
Diesel fuel makes the world turn, and at one time it was seen as a clean & economical way to make electrical power. Goes to show you how much things can change.

About 5 minutes up the road from my house is a power plant that was built in 1956. It has two Fairbanks Morse Diesel engines connected to generators. Big outside air intakes, brick smokestack, etc. They used to power a large farm and the Chazy school. I don't think the engines have run in quite a while, but I was told they are ready for the call to duty.

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 9:38 pm

titleist1 wrote:
Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 7:27 pm
CJ....I am pretty sure he said he owns a Chevy Bolt....
And that is fine, that answers that then. Now let's hear the rest of it. My whole point being that just blowing off a bunch of random articles doesn't necessarily mean that one knows what he's even talking about.

It sure looks impressive (I guess).

 
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Post by Dave 1234 » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 11:00 pm

The production of heat starts everything modern man does and uses . My one ton 4x4 will be around for 20 plus years. Many hybred's will pass through a crusher while that old truck is still making someone a living . Solar feels good, but we still need steady and reliable energy to keep us all alive and productive.

Dave


 
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Post by CoalJockey » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 11:07 pm

titleist1 wrote:
Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 7:27 pm

Like I said before, I hope solar does get cheaper because I would like to put some panels on the roof and be less dependent on the grid. But right now the pay back here for a 4kw system that will fit on my south facing roof is too long to justify it and that is a system without a battery bank.
And just to be perfectly clear, I am by no means downplaying that. If you live in the kind of climate where your own solar system will do the duty, then I say go for it. By all means if the shoe fits then wear it. Just because I serve the coal industry I am not closed-minded to better ways.

With that being said, solar and wind on a scale as wide as Barney describes would be about a reliable as a sunny day here in the mountains. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water and be so quick to shut down and talk smack about our fossil power production. Demand for electrical energy will only increase as time goes on... He himself points to this with the added availability of EV cars.

What I simply see here is a looming disaster as higher demand and lower electrical production will increase the costs to the consumer. Installation and conversion will create associated costs, it only stands to reason. Why take away something so reliable? Nothing will create a kilowatt more reliably than a BTU.

 
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Post by Dave 1234 » Thu. Jan. 18, 2018 11:42 pm

The state of Mass. just approved a law that will allow the power co. to put a demand meter on a net metered customers home, if they have solar or wind . That will wipe out any savings they have from solar if they use juice at night or on a cloudy day. ..... Bet they never saw that coming . ...... Heck, I bet they don't even know what a demand meter does !

Dave

 
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Post by BigBarney » Fri. Jan. 19, 2018 11:35 am

The reason I post the links is because we cannot be all knowledgeable on all subjects and

this puts facts from people in the particular industry on the table for discussion.



As far as experience I was involved in the 1970's with a wind energy company which

later developed 2 wind farms in the Tehachapi,CA mountains ,but later folded up, they

were too early by about 20 years. I had two windmills (experimental) on my NY property

Both of which are now not used. The remaining Jacobs has a failure in the gearbox and is

tied off after wind damaged the blades after the gear box failed.


I do have a 2017 Bolt EV which I got in Oct 2017 and drive it all the time.

I have wanted a EV for 40+ years and now the technology has improved where they are

now competitive with ICE vehicles.


BigBarney

 
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Post by Gian4 » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 5:17 pm

Well......
If you want to see the current state of "the green" power producing economy look at Germany. They closed down their nuclear plants (I'm not a nuclear fan myself) and pushed wind and solar. This brilliant move raised their electric costs to noncompetitive rates. Good for us but sucks for them. To meet their demand short falls they must buy electricity at top dollar rates on the spot market from other countries. Some they buy from France which is primarily nuclear generated,but the majority they get from eastern Europe. This is generated by the dirtiest (and I don't mean CO2) and inefficient soviet era coal fired plants. These plants have found extended life to meet the spot needs of the "green" Germans. They pay top dollar for filthy electric power. Why?? I hate hypocrites. I'm all for renewables but until the storage issues are solved it will be a mistake to put all are eggs in that basket. I would hope logic would dictate energy policy but I fear the almost religious march to a green economy will cloud judgement. Just look at all the taxpayer money wasted on bankrupt battery plants and solar panel companies not to mention tax subsidized solar panel and electric car purchases. If it's such a great deal why the subsidies? Smoke and mirrors my friends.
Gian4

 
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Post by BigBarney » Tue. Jan. 30, 2018 11:29 am

"On a Q4 earnings conference call on Friday, Robo predicted that by the early 2020s, it will be cheaper to build new renewables than to continue running existing coal and nuclear plants. That’s ... crazy."

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/1 ... es-cheaper

Energy storage is the key and once that is improved more any fossil fueled plant will be technically obsolete

but can be used till their useful life is over. Any power plant that has any fuel cost will not be able to compete.

This is not far in the future.

"Variable wind and solar are not a one-to-one replacement for “firm” capacity that can be dispatched at will (fossil fuel, hydro, and nuclear plants, mostly). But if renewables can hook up with storage to become a “nearly firm, shaped product,” they can start competing more directly with fossil fuels."

Not yet but soon.....

BigBarney

 
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Post by coalnewbie » Tue. Jan. 30, 2018 1:59 pm


 
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Post by BigBarney » Tue. Jan. 30, 2018 2:25 pm

I agree with some of that and the US will always have a need for oil and gas , but not to be

burned for electric. Renewables will be the main supply as the technology improves and

makes electric power less costly than fossil fuels.Some areas of the US will always be some-

what dependent on fossil fuel , because of climate . Wind is viable in many areas and so is

solar. 20 years out a large number of homes will generate their own electric and be connected

with adjoining area to balance the supply and demand.


Coal used for domestic heating is still viable , but not for power production , companies are

shutting them down all over the US , or trying to get subsidies from the rate payers to keep

them online.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114687_u-s- ... le-by-2020



BigBarney

 
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Post by Pacowy » Tue. Jan. 30, 2018 3:30 pm

EIA publishes piles of data on power generation and they do not substantiate the dire characterizations of power generation by coal offered above. If you take a look at Table 1.1 in the most recent Electric Power Monthly (https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/), coal has obviously lost ground to NG during the "shale gas boom" that has occurred since 2007. However, even without any of Rick Perry's subsidies, and despite the regulatory uncertainty for coal created by the Obama administration, coal still held about a 30% share of total power generation in 2016. In 2017, the coal share even inched up a little both in total and relative to NG. In comparison, solar and renewables (other than hydroelectric) in 2016 provided a little over 8% and in 2017 gained about 1 percentage point. I'll leave it to others to tally up the subsidies that have been provided to solar and other renewables to get them even this far. I do not see any evidence that solar and other renewables have become so cheap and practical that they are wiping out coal or other fossil fuels in the power generation marketplace.

Mike


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