Interesting Coal Discussion Yesterday

NoSmoke
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Post By: NoSmoke » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 5:58 am

What a coal type of day, not only burning it, but coal being all over the TV and Radio.

My day started by watching a PBS program, Frontline, about Scott Pruitt of the EPA. The program is pretty biased anyway, but I never saw a program of theirs so slanted before. But as I stewed about that all day, in listening to a Christian radio station they brought on a guy that advocates for fossil fuels, but for a different reason: as a Christian he feels fossil fuels help humanity, and as a Dr, along with 30 colleagues had some strong points I thought.

All this could get political, but I don't mean to be, and will just try and show his thought process on why coal HELPS the poor and elderly. people can agree or disagree.

Basically he said that Britain decided to shutter its coal power plants and went instead with wind primarily. Still an interesting thing happened. Electric rates in Britain went up 4 times! This caused something called Power Poverty, where poor people had to chose between paying their electric rates, and paying for food. Because hunger wins out, people ended up shutting off their heat.

Here is the interesting part, because cold is hard on the human body, modern society tracks people who lose their life due to extenuating circumstances. Since the cold effects the elderly, and any are impoverished, in Britain, these people's mortality rates rose after implementing clean energy. It rose from 18,000 deaths per winter, to 20,000, to 24,000, to 28,000 and now it is at 35,000. That is almost a double increase in the loss of life due to impoverished people in the cold, or going without food since power bills are typically higher in the winter.

Now the skeptic in me says maybe other things are at place here, like an aging population getting bigger, but it is hard to toss aside that the death rate increased at the start of the high power costs. I am not a huge fan of coincidences.

The man went on to say that we are commanded to take care of the poor and elderly and that for right now, unimpeded access to energy resources is the best way for developing countries, the poor, and the elderly to improve their situation. This kind of flies in the face of those pushing the green agenda who say it will inconvenience the western societies at most. He seems to make a valid point that no...the green agenda will literally kill thousands of people. Dramatic...yes, but I can not stop thinking that he has a very convincing point.

Everyone can make their own conclusions. The Dr came out with a documentary called "Where the Grass is Greener Two" if anyone wants to see it, or debunk it.

http://wherethegrassisgreenerthemovie.com/


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Post By: Pacowy » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:41 am

Yes I think many experts in different disciplines have concluded that green energy is very regressive and harmful to the poor. If they turn the heat off, they freeze. If they keep the heat on and/or keep using electricity, they don't have money for other things, which in the U.S. include things like health care costs as well as food. It seems pretty sociopathic to promote green energy on the basis of how "good" it supposedly is for the planet, while ignoring the very real and literally lethal impacts it has on the large segment of society that can't easily absorb the large cost increases it creates.

Mike

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Post By: CapeCoaler » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 10:35 am

But also remember the 'Greens' think too many humans...
are a plague upon the planet...
This would fit that philosophy...
Fits in nicely of limiting health care to the elderly...
because someone younger will get a greater benefit...
from those same healthcare dollars...
I agree that you should be able to keep warm and comfortable...
With whatever fuel you want...
Just don't cause a nuisance to your neighbors...
And coal fits that agenda!...
Mother Earth creates so much 'pollution and destruction' on her own...
sans the humans...
with Volcanos, Hurricanes, Droughts and Floods...
The human effect is pretty minimal...
Recycling some hydrocarbons for our brief existence and comfort...
Should be a non issue...

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Sunny Boy
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Post By: Sunny Boy » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 11:54 am

A big part of the problem with alternative energy is that it is not cost affective.

All of the "green energy methods " need tax breaks and Government subsidies just to survive. They are not growing to replace oil and gas because most people don't, or can't afford those alternatives.

Solar doesn't work well where it's needed most because it becomes less affective at the lower sun angles further north where it gets colder. And large areas of the Northeast, downwind of the Great Lakes, the coldest months are refered to as "gray months" because so many days are socked-in by thick cloud cover.

Wind energy is so iffy that it's become more of a punch line for jokes. It's not uncommon to see the dozens of windmills north of here not turning for lack of wind.

The only cost affective energy we have here is hydro. NYS has one of the highest percentages of it's electricity supplied by hydro of all the states. And has used hydro going back into the early 1900's. And at 5 cents a KWH delivered it's far cheaper for me than any other form of energy, except anthracite in an efficient antique stove.

If this country had cheaper alternatives (like my town where most of the homes have electric base board heat, or oil burners converted to electric heat), it would catch on just based on people's natural want to save money on heating.

Paul

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Post By: davidmcbeth3 » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 2:47 pm

I saw a documentary wherein babies were put into these chambers to collect the biocreated energy and fed by tubes.

Then this one guy came out of a chamber all not happy that he was being used as basically a battery and messed up the whole system.

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Post By: coalnewbie » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 5:08 am

with Volcanos, Hurricanes, Droughts and Floods...
The human effect is pretty minimal...
Recycling some hydrocarbons for our brief existence and comfort...
Should be a non issue
Oh yes, I like that one. However, I do remember the London smogs of the fifties where some mornings you literally could not see our hand in front of your face.which were fixed by banning coal fires (bituminous of course - yuk). The Pittsburgh museum has 100 year old photos of blackout sunny days due to coal use. Now Beijing and a lot of Chinese cities have the same catastrophic smog that they are wrestling with. Pollution kills a lot of people too. Of course, the whole planet could be saved by NEPA anthracite. Hey, this is a coal board you will find nuts like me pushing their agenda what do you expect? There are few real secrets in this world but with my energy usage problems. anthracite is one of them.

Being a devout christian I say, let the stupid bums freeze to death if they can't work that one out. Go stick solar on our roof see if I care. Just leave me alone to trade with my coal supplier 'cause without him I would go bust. Darwin was right ... hahahahahhahaha..... and people call me insensitive, go figure.

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Post By: lsayre » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 5:39 am

Great thread! Life itself requires an economical abundance of energy. The more economical and abundant energy is, the more lives that can be sustained, and for more years. Conversely the less economical and less abundant energy is, the fewer lives will be sustainable, and for fewer years.

Overall, societal advancement and standard of living advancement work the same way. To be blunt about it, they are merely an artifact of cheap and abundant energy combined with the freedom to creatively utilize it.

It is literally a sin to deprive mankind of access to (along with the freedom to consume) economical and abundant energy, when such is available.

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Post By: NoSmoke » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 6:21 am

I heard on the radio yesterday that they now are putting costs of climate change based on health costs, in terms of deaths and sickness. My question is, how do you quantify that?

Case in point is my Thyroid. I am having it totally removed on Monday, and somewhere, somehow that is being tracked as a statistic. That is fine big brother, but how did it happen? No one knows! It could have possibly been from the 28 years of welding I have done where I was constantly around x-rays. Or it could have been from my near fatal infection that only Clydomyacin killed; the strongest antibiotic that kills both good and bad bacteria. But it could have also come from pollution. Still my problem could easily be linked as an environmental health issue, my $50,000 surgery part of the pollutional costs.

What I love about Scott Pruitt is his way of making decisions. he takes a Red/Blue approach as he calls it. He puts skeptics and proponents of an issue in a room and lets them hash it out, and from that discussion filters out fact from fiction, emotion from fact, and alarmist from sound science. I LOVE that. Too many years of alarmist operating the EPA in my opinion.


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Post By: NoSmoke » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 6:39 am

coalnewbie wrote:
Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 5:08 am
However, I do remember the London smogs of the fifties where some mornings you literally could not see our hand in front of your face.which were fixed by banning coal fires (bituminous of course - yuk). The Pittsburgh museum has 100 year old photos of blackout sunny days due to coal use. Now Beijing and a lot of Chinese cities have the same catastrophic smog that they are wrestling with.
I have heart burn about this because I think people get confused. The climate change stipulations do not address this, they address carbon dioxide emissions which is essential to the cycle of life. When you get increased carbon dioxide, the plants, trees, crops etc all grow better and therefore life is better.

The nasty stuff like smog and heavy metals that you are referring too is already controlled by scrubbers and other measures. Of course we want that stuff removed, and in proper countries that is already addressed by existing laws. I see it on my own farm. I now have to add sulfur to my soil because I am no longer getting it from the acid rain we used to get.

I have heart burn about this because it seems deceptive, the alarmists WANT people to think that is what they are trying to prevent, when in reality that is already held in check.

I know carbon sequestering as they propose the laws, will make if difficult for me to sheep farm, simply because sheep burp and fart. Yet I hardly believe my sheep (around for 9000 years now) are really harming the world. Yet even if I produce biochar which is 90% carbon, the best way to get that carbon into the soil is to till the soil, but under carbon sequestering rules, because I tilled and did not no-till farm, I would be in violation of the carbon sequestering rules. It just kind of shows that the rules do not make sense. Under the rules I literally cannot put 90% carbon in the soil and have it count. This is no different then the National Organic Standards. In that case there is 900 pages of rules. Really? there should only be 1. Do not use chemicals. It literally is a 900 page loophole rule book and that is what carbon sequestering is; they want to dictate how farms are operated. Word to the wise...I hope people like salads and Kale.

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Post By: lsayre » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 7:07 am

Amen to the chemicals thing. I certainly was exposed to enough of them in my working days. And my life expectancy will highly likely reflect it.

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Post By: franpipeman » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 7:51 am

do it yourself 7k$ better in winter as air is clearer
your looking at one days sun gathering
IMG_1108.jpg
IMG_0354.JPG

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lsayre
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Post By: lsayre » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 9:05 am

You don't generally see the chemicals and pollutants involved in the manufacture and distribution of solar panels. Therefore they give the outward appearance of being 100% sanitary solutions.

Nice panel array though. I only have 4 x 260 Watt panels myself. Need more. Can't afford more.... The 4 that I have will most likely never pay for themselves in my remaining lifetime. Unless there is a power outage. Then their value to me goes way up!!!

Do yours become useless in a power outage, as most systems will?

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franpipeman
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Post By: franpipeman » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 9:17 am

yes they become useless unless one builds a battery back up system . I think the sun is source for almost all of our energy may as well get it from the source first. I don't see how we can discount using it as such. We built the array at my sons house as i have too much shade. He will recover the money. perhaps in two more years. he is 30 years old

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lsayre
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Post By: lsayre » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 9:25 am

franpipeman wrote:
Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 9:17 am
yes they become useless unless one builds a battery back up system . I think the sun is source for almost all of our energy may as well get it from the source first. I don't see how we can discount using it as such. We built the array at my sons house as i have too much shade. He will recover the money. perhaps in two more years. he is 30 years old
Mine are on batteries and are off grid.

Most systems quote 20 year paybacks. Even if you installed yours at half price by doing it yourself, the real world payback will most likely exceed 2 years, and be more like 10.
Last edited by lsayre on Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post By: NoSmoke » Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 5:15 pm

I have heart burn about this as well, and here is why.

My uncle has solar, wind and geothermal, all of which will never be paid back in his lifetime. However, him and his wife have they money to pay for it from their former government jobs, even though they gobble up the renewable energy credits.

This hurts me in 3 ways.

First I have to pay higher electric rates because of him, and thousands like him. That is because he gets a 1 KW for 1 KW deal every time he is pumping energy onto the grid. The problem with that is, electric payers do not pay traditional big power producers retail prices for power providers, we pay them wholesale prices. Lets say a coal power plant gets 5 cents per KW, my uncle is getting 14 cents taken off his bill for every kw he produces for the grid. So by rights it should not be a 1 for 1 kw deal, but he should have to kick 2 kw's onto the grid for every kw he has taken off his power bill.

Second, his electric bill is drastically reduced. This is good for him, but poor me, unable to buy the green energy products even with the rebates, means my bill not only stays high, it goes up. That is because our grid is based on consumption. However as the more well to do buy energy producing products, or energy star products, the amount they pay goes down. However the cost of transmission lines, labor, maintenance, etc...even in Maine's deregulated power grid...is going UP. This causes a death spiral. As the power cost goes UP, more well to do people tap into the rebates of green power and energy star products so their cost goes down. That means less money in total for the grid, so the cost per kw has to go up. Again for those unable to buy into the green power system, or energy star products, their cost goes upwards. (In all fairness there is a way for everyone to get out of this death spiral...for them to go off-grid, and trust me it has crossed my mind! Another thing that is being considered is a flat rate for electricity so that there is no pay per KW)

Third, there is no free lunch. Someone has to pay for those energy rebates and it is in the form of taxes. While it is true that those that get the rebates also help to fund those very rebates, it shows no digression, the poor pay for them as well. So taxes ultimately go up to pay for these rebates.

This is not a poor versus rich sort of post, it just shows how something meaningful can easily hurt the ones who can play and pay, between those that cannot. Either way, the rebates are not going away anytime soon as it would be political suicide for a congressman to say, "we are cutting back on green energy."


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