Will EGR Work

Don't even joke Rberq .... next thing you know Obama will be mandating "CHECK STOVE" lights that will be visible to the environmental authorities patrolling your streets, & you won't get a passing sticker on your house!

A simple stove installation will require electronic tools, O2 sensors, computers, miles upon miles of wiring .... and your stove will then break down 10 times a night. It will still keep you warm, but the authorities will fine you for each incident!

Don't laugh ... if things keep heading the way they are now ......

SMITTY wrote:Don't even joke

Just a small air pump, a tube welded up the side of the stove to preheat the injection air, a simple feedback loop from the O2 sensor to the air pump, a temperature sensor so the pump would not cut in too early, servo motors to adjust the baro, an electric eye to look for blue flame and fire a spark plug if the coal gases were not yet ignited, propane injection (credit Freddy!) for low-temperature amelioration, halon suppressant system to shut the whole thing down in the event of computer failure.... Probably would not add more than $15,000 to the price of the stove. Plus it would need a tuneup and sensor replacements every couple years -- with your mechanical know-how that would be a business opportunity!

rberq wrote:

SMITTY wrote:Don't even joke

Just a small air pump, a tube welded up the side of the stove to preheat the injection air, a simple feedback loop from the O2 sensor to the air pump, a temperature sensor so the pump would not cut in too early, servo motors to adjust the baro, an electric eye to look for blue flame and fire a spark plug if the coal gases were not yet ignited, propane injection (credit Freddy!) for low-temperature amelioration, halon suppressant system to shut the whole thing down in the event of computer failure.... Probably would not add more than $15,000 to the price of the stove. Plus it would need a tuneup and sensor replacements every couple years -- with your mechanical know-how that would be a business opportunity!

I think a lot of your ideas are very good even though you are joking. How to implement in a dead simple way is the problem.

Gas recirculation has been done in the past with great success. Most Base Burner stoves have a gas recirculation feature. The hot gas is readmitted below the grate where it is enriched by oxygen from the primary damper in the ash pit where it is then sucked back up into the fire and burned. It was a tried and true technology for Anthracite Stoves in 1900.

Berlin wrote:Nox doesn't really harm anything, it's a precursor to ground level ozone formation along with VOC's, this is why it's regulated. heat doesn't kill engines, EGR kills engines.

"Nitrogen oxides are common pollutants found in most of the air in the United States. You can be exposed to nitrogen oxides outdoors by breathing air that contains it, especially if you live near a coal-burning electric power plant or areas with heavy motor vehicle traffic. You can be exposed to higher levels if air pollution and smog levels are high.

You can be exposed at home if you burn wood, or use a kerosene heater or gas stove.

You can be exposed at home or at work, indoors or outdoors, through smoking cigarettes or breathing second-hand cigarette smoke.

You can be exposed at work if you work in a facility that produces nitric acid, explosives such as dynamite and TNT, or welded metals.

How can nitrogen oxides affect my health?



Exposure to high industrial levels of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide can cause death. It can cause collapse, rapid burning and swelling of tissues in the throat and upper respiratory tract, difficult breathing, throat spasms, and fluid build-up in the lungs. It can interfere with the blood's ability to carry oxygen through the body, causing headache, fatigue, dizziness, and a blue color to the skin and lips.

Industrial exposure to nitrogen dioxide may cause genetic mutations, damage a developing fetus, and decrease fertility in women. Repeated exposure to high levels of nitrogen dioxide may lead to permanent lung damage. Industrial exposure to nitric oxide can cause unconsciousness, vomiting, mental confusion, and damage to the teeth. Industrial skin or eye contact with high concentrations of nitrogen oxide gases or nitrogen dioxide liquid can cause serious burns.

Long-term exposure to nitrogen oxides in smog can trigger serious respiratory problems, including damage to lung tissue and reduction in lung function. Exposure to low levels of nitrogen oxides in smog can irritate the eyes, nose, throat, and lungs. It can cause coughing, shortness of breath, fatigue, and nausea. "

http://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version/chemicals.php?id=19

heat kills motor oil..... most joe blow's don't pay attention till its too late...

http://www.atmosphere.mpg.de/enid/Information_ss/ ... s_5h4.html
"This causes the death of fishes and other animals in the water. We call this phenomenon eutrophication."

franco b wrote:I think a lot of your ideas are very good even though you are joking. How to implement in a dead simple way is the problem.

I was going to say my original idea (O2 sensor) was not really a joke, but I was afraid Smitty would have a coronary. I always wanted an O2 sensor and adjustable secondary air on my catalytic wood stove. And if I could stretch a high-temperature electric filament or grid through the upper firebox of the coal stove to ignite the coal gases there would be less puff-back danger.

rberq wrote:

franco b wrote:I think a lot of your ideas are very good even though you are joking. How to implement in a dead simple way is the problem.

I was going to say my original idea (O2 sensor) was not really a joke, but I was afraid Smitty would have a coronary. I always wanted an O2 sensor and adjustable secondary air on my catalytic wood stove. And if I could stretch a high-temperature electric filament or grid through the upper firebox of the coal stove to ignite the coal gases there would be less puff-back danger.

It's very simple, get an appliance in which all of these issues have been either solved or addressed. Get a Base Burner.

You guys are confusing pollutants here. O2 sensors, reburn, fresh air injection and such have to do with unburned hydrocarbons. Nox is something completely different and the techniques used to combat the two are completely different and contradictory.

To improve emissions of unburnt hydrocarbons you must improve combustion efficiency. Leaner mixtures and higher combustion temps are part of the solution. This also increases emissins of Nox. To combat Nox we reduce combustion temps. One method is EGR or introducing inert gasses into the combustion chamber which cools the mixture. The problem is that this decreases cumbustion efficiency and increases emissions of unburnt hydrocarbons. To add to the mess we have particulate emmisins that fall more in line with unburnt hydrocarbons than Nox.

The battle is essentially a catch 22. In the big picture the Nox and unburnt hydrocarbons you are emitting from your coal stove are probably close to the percentage of mercury emisions you're to blame for

Berlin wrote:Exactly what he said^ EGR is a horrible thing that cuts the life of many engines (especially newer diesels) short, it doesn't add efficiency, rather, it takes it away. EGR lowers peak combustion temps by placing exhaust gases in the combustion chamber and creating small "dead zones" in the cylinder and lower peak core combustion temps thus reducing NOx emissions.

All this useless stuff they are requiring on diesel engines that are inherently cleaner than gasoline engines is reducing efficiency.This causes more fuel to be burned increasing the amount of fuel needed to do the same job. Also carbon is an abrasive. An EGR valve in a diesel engine prematurely wears out cylinder walls and pistons. This causes increased blowby. Blowby reduces the efficiency of the engine, also making it use more fuel thus creating more Co2. The new catalitic converters being required on all diesel trucks and cars is killing their fuel mileage. The Volkswagen diesel went from 44 mpg to 40 mpg with these devices on them in only one model year. Heavy trucks are loosing up to 1 mile per gallon. A truck that gets 6.5 mpg now is only averaging 5.5 gallons a year.
A truck that drives 100,000 miles a year at 6.5 mpg will use,15,384.61 gallons of fuel. A truck that gets 5.5 mpg uses 18,181.81 gallons of fuel in one year. The difference is 2,797.19 gallons of fuel at 3.259 a gallon costs $9,116.04 a year. I am a truck driver. I don't care what any tree hugger says, that is adding more carbon to the air than it is preventing a very small amount of Nox into the air.

Old stoves were designed to introduce flue gases back under the coal bed. I have one such stove. It is also a base heater/burner. There is a little side lever that opens up the holes to re-burn the flue gases. H2 + CO are in the flue gas and there is excess O2 in the fresh air in. some stoves have secondary air to burn off these gases.

Duengeon master wrote:

Berlin wrote:Exactly what he said^ EGR is a horrible thing that cuts the life of many engines (especially newer diesels) short, it doesn't add efficiency, rather, it takes it away. EGR lowers peak combustion temps by placing exhaust gases in the combustion chamber and creating small "dead zones" in the cylinder and lower peak core combustion temps thus reducing NOx emissions.

All this useless stuff they are requiring on diesel engines that are inherently cleaner than gasoline engines is reducing efficiency.This causes more fuel to be burned increasing the amount of fuel needed to do the same job. Also carbon is an abrasive. An EGR valve in a diesel engine prematurely wears out cylinder walls and pistons. This causes increased blowby. Blowby reduces the efficiency of the engine, also making it use more fuel thus creating more Co2. The new catalitic converters being required on all diesel trucks and cars is killing their fuel mileage. The Volkswagen diesel went from 44 mpg to 40 mpg with these devices on them in only one model year. Heavy trucks are loosing up to 1 mile per gallon. A truck that gets 6.5 mpg now is only averaging 5.5 gallons a year.
A truck that drives 100,000 miles a year at 6.5 mpg will use,15,384.61 gallons of fuel. A truck that gets 5.5 mpg uses 18,181.81 gallons of fuel in one year. The difference is 2,797.19 gallons of fuel at 3.259 a gallon costs $9,116.04 a year. I am a truck driver. I don't care what any tree hugger says, that is adding more carbon to the air than it is preventing a very small amount of Nox into the air.

not only that but how bout they spray some six dollar a gallon pee in the mix...... err urea exhaust gas fluid...