Coal future?

 
Bubbalowe
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Post by Bubbalowe » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 8:29 am

Sunny Boy wrote:
Tue. Jan. 15, 2019 9:15 pm
Don't be so sure.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants

Give the page graphics time to load. Upper right corner you can zoom in or out. The colored circles on the map are all coal-fired power plants all over the world. Pink are new plants, red are under construction. And that's as recent as May of last year.

If you do a web search you'll find info that shows that world-wide, coal-fired power production has increased almost ten fold since back in 2000. Guess which country is suppling a lot of that coal ?

Paul
Aware of other countries coal usage and referring to USA electric generation. Everyone should know by now coal is being replaced in USA as an energy source and no discussion will change it. 25 years ago I worked as a mechanic for a coal company and the owner would give pickup loads to employees for home use (bituminous of course) Today there isn't a single mine in a 50 mile radius of me where I could purchase coal if I wanted to. I am grateful for Anthracite production of NE PA putting it in a bag and shipping.


 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 8:53 am

Bubbalowe wrote:
Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 8:29 am
Aware of other countries coal usage and referring to USA electric generation. Everyone should know by now coal is being replaced in USA as an energy source and no discussion will change it. 25 years ago I worked as a mechanic for a coal company and the owner would give pickup loads to employees for home use (bituminous of course) Today there isn't a single mine in a 50 mile radius of me where I could purchase coal if I wanted to. I am grateful for Anthracite production of NE PA putting it in a bag and shipping.
That's your place, others are not finding that to be the case.

I've got twice as many coal dealers here in CNY than there were just a few years ago. Guess why they are all doing a good business selling coal ?

Guess why Lehigh Mike has many, many pages of new Lehigh dealers listed all around the NE and out into the Midwest - just in the past several years ?

Guess why Coaljockey said he's having one of his best years ever for shipping coal ?

Did you ever think that maybe it's your location and not the industry ?

If you look at the map I posted the link to, which is listed as fairly recent info, you'll see there's still a lot of coal fired plants on line in the USA. And would-wide use is growing rapidly. Hardly sounds like the death of coal to me. Sounds more like someone has been listening to the LSM's campaign of glo-bull warming/anti-coal and looked around and doesn't see what's happening elsewhere.

History is full of examples like, one big hiccup in the gas industry and the power companies will start up idled plants and again be pushing for the many new coal plants that were planned, but cancelled only a few years ago, when gas prices started to drop.

Paul

 
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Post by Bubbalowe » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 9:21 am

"The IEA says global coal investment has already peaked and is now in a "dramatic slowdown"". ( from the carbonbrief link Paul posted) Nothing in article supports notion that coal use is increasing rather the opposite. Again people are confused that bags of Anthracite on the floor of TSC or Home Depot is indicative of coal industry where discussion concerns bituminous as fuel.

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 12:12 pm

Bubbalowe wrote:
Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 8:29 am
Aware of other countries coal usage and referring to USA electric generation. Everyone should know by now coal is being replaced in USA as an energy source and no discussion will change it. 25 years ago I worked as a mechanic for a coal company and the owner would give pickup loads to employees for home use (bituminous of course) Today there isn't a single mine in a 50 mile radius of me where I could purchase coal if I wanted to. I am grateful for Anthracite production of NE PA putting it in a bag and shipping.
BINGO! You just made my entire point from start to finish, now re-read what you typed. The whole reason why you cannot buy a single lump of bituminous within a 50 mile radius of yourself is due to the declining market for bituminous steam/metallurgical coal that often creates house coal for heating use as a by-product. Coal as a heating-fuel only would be very costly to mine for just that purpose, and the price would in turn get passed onto the consumer.

Anthracite has a little more of an advantage in the home heating department however industrial demand still influences production and cost trends. Take away the export/industrial segment and you will likely still be able to get your anthracite in a bag and shipped right to you but hold onto your wallet as it will cost you MUCH more.

If you think that your anthracite cost will remain low as power plant and metallurgical coal is phased out... dream on. The only thing keeping it where it is at present time is the world-wide demand... if it were left up to the States it would be more cost effective to burn your living room furniture to stay warm.

No one wants to look at the big picture... for many different reasons. The American public must be forgiven for their ignorance as they rely on the news media to spoon-feed them what they want to hear and whatever makes them feel good.

Take ahold of the wheel and turn it for yourself.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 1:03 pm

Bubbalowe wrote:
Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 9:21 am
"The IEA says global coal investment has already peaked and is now in a "dramatic slowdown"". ( from the carbonbrief link Paul posted) Nothing in article supports notion that coal use is increasing rather the opposite. Again people are confused that bags of Anthracite on the floor of TSC or Home Depot is indicative of coal industry where discussion concerns bituminous as fuel.
Your ignoring all those pink and red dots on that map.

And, while trying to say, " Nothing in article supports notion that coal use is increasing rather the opposite." Just because the link mentioned what the IEA "thinks" is happening. .... you failed to mention this part from my link.

"Rising coal capacity

Global coal capacity grew in every year between 2000 and 2017, nearly doubling from 1,063GW to 1,995GW. As far back as 1950, coal capacity has only ever risen – though this older data is less reliable.

The promise of cheap electricity to fuel economic growth is driving this expansion. Coal generates 40-41% of the world’s electricity, its highest share in decades. And there are now 77 countries using coal power, up from 65 in 2000. Another 13 plan to join the club. ............."

Rather contradicts what the IEA "thinks",... don't you think ? :roll:

Paul

 
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Post by Bubbalowe » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 1:27 pm

My anthracite consumption ends if price becomes prohibitive. Same as US electric generating stations fired on bituminous. Sorry, merely simple economics.

 
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Post by swyman » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 3:22 pm

You guys can sure ruin a good buzz!


 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 4:30 pm

Bubbalowe wrote:
Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 1:27 pm
My anthracite consumption ends if price becomes prohibitive. Same as US electric generating stations fired on bituminous. Sorry, merely simple economics.
If things are as bad as your claiming, why haven't you switched to gas like the power companies ?

Seems a bit strange to be saying coal is dying out because it's too costly and inefficient to compete with gas, but you'll continue to use it unless it gets too expensive.

Paul

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 6:47 pm

swyman wrote:
Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 3:22 pm
You guys can sure ruin a good buzz!
We just made the conversation a little more interesting... besides, you’re the one who asked! :lol:

Everyone on this board that wishes to continue having an abundant and reliable supply of coal (anthracite or bituminous) needs to understand that the home heating segment is only a very small part of a larger picture. I really do not see that sinking in so I guess I will get off it already.

Bubbalowe states that his anthracite consumption ends if price becomes prohibitive. Such will be the attitude of many, many more who didn’t realize how good they had it.

The only thing I can think of that is left to say is let’s not “throw the baby out with the bath water”. Even if we do not use it in this lifetime, someday there will be a need for that energy... perhaps folks will not take it for granted as we do now and thank the Good Lord that they are fortunate enough to have it.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 7:09 pm

Ill just buy my 300 tons now... and not worry about the future.. lol

 
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Post by Bubbalowe » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 8:37 pm

CoalJockey wrote:
Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 6:47 pm
We just made the conversation a little more interesting... besides, you’re the one who asked! :lol:

Everyone on this board that wishes to continue having an abundant and reliable supply of coal (anthracite or bituminous) needs to understand that the home heating segment is only a very small part of a larger picture. I really do not see that sinking in so I guess I will get off it already.

Bubbalowe states that his anthracite consumption ends if price becomes prohibitive. Such will be the attitude of many, many more who didn’t realize how good they had it.

The only thing I can think of that is left to say is let’s not “throw the baby out with the bath water”. Even if we do not use it in this lifetime, someday there will be a need for that energy... perhaps folks will not take it for granted as we do now and thank the Good Lord that they are fortunate enough to have it.
Fairly certain I won't be alone abandoning an overpriced heat source it it comes to that but hope it remains affordable forever. You are correct about not sinking in part of discussion (anthracite or bituminous) but I get it. In the 80's there were half a dozen coal companies (bituminous of course) with approximately 12 mines working in the area, currently there are 0. No pixie dust pie in the sky chart can change that fact. Need to get a box of crayons out to try and explain that I'm burning anthracite because bituminous in no longer an option. Keep the shiny side up and the rubber down.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 8:51 pm

“As coal is still predicted to have a significant place in the future energy mix of the USA (21% in 2030 and 18% in 2040) it is possible that once new technologies are demonstrated, old coal-fired units could be replaced with new systems,” the IEA concludes optimistically. “Additionally, with a market for CO2 in enhanced oil recovery (EOR), relevant R&D, tax incentives and federal support for carbon capture, utilisation and storage, the USA is currently a leader in these areas.”
At the end of the article posted...
https://www.powermag.com/who-has-the-worlds-most- ... ant-fleet/
Cost per kilowatt will always rule...
The tables are rigged with all the subsidizes given to wind and solar...
Good storage is still a ways off...
Nukes are getting shut down.
Efficient appliances will only offset so much use...
Base load plants will always be needed...
Coal will be a part of that...

 
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Post by coalnewbie » Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 9:58 pm

Just remember, if you are following the herd you are certain to be headed in the wrong direction.

 
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Post by swyman » Thu. Jan. 17, 2019 7:25 am

CoalJockey wrote:
Wed. Jan. 16, 2019 6:47 pm
We just made the conversation a little more interesting... besides, you’re the one who asked! :lol:

Everyone on this board that wishes to continue having an abundant and reliable supply of coal (anthracite or bituminous) needs to understand that the home heating segment is only a very small part of a larger picture. I really do not see that sinking in so I guess I will get off it already.

Bubbalowe states that his anthracite consumption ends if price becomes prohibitive. Such will be the attitude of many, many more who didn’t realize how good they had it.

The only thing I can think of that is left to say is let’s not “throw the baby out with the bath water”. Even if we do not use it in this lifetime, someday there will be a need for that energy... perhaps folks will not take it for granted as we do now and thank the Good Lord that they are fortunate enough to have it.
Just poking fun CJ! I can't tell you how much I enjoy burning coal and hope to continue as long as I live or am able to carry out the ash....which should be a very long time god willing. Now I just need to get my vac system completed (still waiting on vacuum to come in) and my life will be very simple! Keep on keepin on.....

 
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Post by oros35 » Thu. Jan. 17, 2019 12:52 pm

Coal power plants are being replaced by Natural Gas plants. That's a fact. It will take a while for the whole country to get away from coal though. Natural gas is cheap and plentiful now, but the infrastructure to transport it is not nation wide. Local to the gas fields though, coal is fading fast for electric production. 10-15 years and most of the coal power plants in gas country will be gone unless given govt subsidies.

Renewables are not viable yet, and have a long way to go. Govt can push as much as they want, but one good brownout/blackout if the wind doesn't blow (or blows too much) or demand is greater than sunshine, and people will be begging for fossil fuels to come back online.

The metallurgical world will keep it going for coal, but at some point the cost for mining and processing the coal for residential use could easily cross the cost threshold for other fuels. I can see at some point in the near future, the cost of coal being too high for residential customers. If you can heat with oil for 25% or more less would you still heat with coal?


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