Coal Power Plants

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David...
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Post By: David... » Thu. Mar. 08, 2018 11:19 am

Thanks for the encouragement. I would suggest you do the same and look outside of your comfort zone. I have no expectation of changing your mind on this issue. I have not taken any of this personally, and am quite familiar with the audience here.
In the 80's and 90's I service commercial refrigeration equipment. There was talk about refrigerants destroying the ozone. New laws were enacted and the refrigerants in use were phased out. Refrigerants could no longer be vented into the atmosphere. These changes were a lot more work for me and money for my customers. As this was going on mostly old guys in the trade scoffed at the notion that the refrigerants were the reason for the declining ozone layer. They would spout all this crap like they were climate scientists. My answer was always, it's the law and I am going to follow it. Now 25 years later I read that the ozone layer is getting better. Your welcome. I did my part then and I will do my part now.
The planet is slowly moving away from carbon based fuels. I am on board with that and do what I can to further that goal.

David


top top
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Post By: top top » Thu. Mar. 08, 2018 11:26 am

[quote=David... post_id=663341 time=1520516108 user_id=25496.......................... Burning coal releases much more CO2 than burning natural gas. ..........................I guess you are calling me a fairy because I believe CO2 is causing global warming?
David[/quote]

So how much CO2 is too much? Whatever it is I don't think we have hit that number yet. And I doubt we ever will. Just look at the NASA link for an explanation. Remember Earth is a closed system. Whatever is here has always been here and nature is equipped to deal with it far better than we are.

The second link is a 100 yard timeline of Earth. Could you overlay the known temperature data and show me the "hockey stick" graph? You will need a pencil that can make a line about one millionth the width of a human hair.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon- ... ning-earth


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Post By: Pacowy » Thu. Mar. 08, 2018 12:20 pm

David, if you want to change my mind, you might try citing actual studies or data. I've already read the IPCC stuff, including the technical appendix material, so you can save your breath on that.

I don't really have an opinion on CFC's and ozone. If it's really the case that global CFC emissions were reduced and healing of the ozone layer occurred, that's good. I think we as a nation have a pretty good history on air quality issues, at least since the Clean Air Act. We have taken steps to achieve control of a number of harmful pollutants, and now enjoy air quality that is very high among industrialized nations.

While you seem to think of CO2 the same way, I don't believe it is. I've looked pretty far into the data and I don't believe the data support the rhetoric regarding the significance of anthropogenic effects. Even if you want to accept the rhetoric, I don't follow how it makes sense to handicap our industrial competitiveness to drive production to developing countries, who burn loads of coal outside of our environmental standards. Unlike the late 1900's, the U.S. isn't really driving the boat anymore on environmental issues, and there is no amount of sacrifice we can make on CO2 that will change the impact of whatever the developing countries are doing.

I also haven't seen anything that looks like an even-handed cost-benefit analysis of potential actions regarding CO2. We get fear-mongering pictures of cities underwater. When the Netherlands - large tracts of which are below current sea levels - saw projections of potential rising sea levels AFAIK they programmed a few upgrades in their dike system and called it a day. Oceans were rising long before we were burning fossil fuels, so we should be planning some forms of adaptation anyways. Even if CO2 adds to that, you need to look at the full range of impacts of CO2 control actions, such as reduced agricultural productivity and higher electricity costs, before any control actions are implemented. I have open eyes and an open mind, but I prefer evidence to fear-mongering.

Mike

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David...
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Post By: David... » Thu. Mar. 08, 2018 1:04 pm

I thought I was pretty clear. I'm not here trying to change anyone's ideas. Like the old guys I used to work with, you have made up your mind. No amount of "proof" is going to change it. I choose not to argue about this because I admit I am not qualified to. The people who I think are qualified, have and do say CO2 causes global warming. You can keep doing your research and look for cost benefit analysis about all of this. I am content with the opinion of most scientists.
By the way, I have no idea what the IPCC is.

David

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Post By: windyhill4.2 » Thu. Mar. 08, 2018 1:13 pm

David... wrote:
Thu. Mar. 08, 2018 11:19 am
Now 25 years later I read that the ozone layer is getting better.
David
You actually believe everything you read... :?:

You must have skipped reading the part where the ozone hole opens to let out the volcanic belching by-products... :roll:

Now is it that mankind is doing something to help the ozone hole open up as needed ?.... even tho opening that hole is a terrible bad thing :roll:

Now take me.... i have just a little faith... i don't have faith big enough to believe that mankind can do that big job....
The little faith that i have is directed towards believing that God our Creator designed things to work just fine. :D

NOW... b4 you get your panties in a bunch.... i do not condone just dumping chemicals into our ground,in fact... my property has been chemical free since i moved here in 2001. I do like to take care of things that God has entrusted me with.

But... neither my faith nor my ego are big enough to think that i can control the ozone hole any better than mankind has ever controlled any volcano. :)

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Post By: Pacowy » Thu. Mar. 08, 2018 3:12 pm

windy that's very interesting about the ozone. I'll try to read up on that.

David..., with all due respect you are the one who has made up your mind on CO2 without having personal familiarity with, or even a willingness to question, the findings you endorse or the process through which they were reached. IPCC is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a body of the UN that has produced a series of "assessments" promoting the proposition that climate change is essentially man-made.

Mike

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David...
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Post By: David... » Thu. Mar. 08, 2018 3:34 pm

I guess the view is different from where I sit.

David

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BigBarney
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Post By: BigBarney » Mon. Mar. 12, 2018 4:44 pm

This is a continuation of my post in Renewables in the misc forums...
efe29826-f556-42ad-9f62-90ed6b9347d6.png
These are the costs on the grid at this time for electric power per MWHr that your

distribution co. pays for your electric at this time of day and it fluctuates all day

long. The facts are in the open and anyone can see them. Our peak today will

around 2000 hr and then go down after that.Most output over $38.00 now.

http://pjm.com/

I gave India as an example of closing coal plants...

"IEEFA finds India’s wind and solar energy costs have fallen 50% to as low as $38 per megawatt hour (MWh) over the past two years, with renewable energy bids in new auctions costing 20% less than the cost of wholesale electricity from existing Indian coal generation, and 30-50% less than the required cost to justify new imported coal or liquefied natural gas capacity."

Even in India our costs are similar to theirs. Now they are replacing the coal plants as fast as possible

to recover any value left in them.

"Stranded assets are already a problem for Indian’s coal fleet - the India-run Numerical service estimates 17 coal-fired plants totaling 18.4 GW capacity worth roughly $30 billion are currently stranded assets – and the problem isn’t going to improve anytime soon."

Our plants have the same problem which is worldwide.

BigBarney


Pacowy
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Post By: Pacowy » Tue. Mar. 13, 2018 2:35 pm

When you gave your India example in the Renewables thread, even rberq, who generally is a proponent of renewables, observed that you were misstating the plain language of the cites (for India and China), which stated that the baseload coal plant closures were driven by flat-lining of demand. The fact that they are also working on renewables does not entitle you to change the cite to fit your world view. The fact that you now are importing this reference without acknowledging rberq or tempering your claims makes it seem like you are just shopping for a venue where their defects haven't been aired.

Mike

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KLook
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Post By: KLook » Tue. Mar. 13, 2018 9:57 pm

David's willful ignorance is stunning while Barney is the troll I have been calling him.....carry on everyone.

Kevin

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Post By: BigBarney » Tue. Mar. 13, 2018 10:37 pm

I don't misstate anything I post , I give a source and my opinion separate from the

quoted examples , plainly with "quotes" around any copied text.

Klook; No troll here just a person with interests in energy.

Been burning coal since 1972 , waiting for a useable electric car .

Now the cars are here and will take the market over slowly.

How many of you have driven a modern electric car ?


BigBarney

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David...
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Post By: David... » Wed. Mar. 14, 2018 8:52 am

It seems to me you are trolling here. Clearly the people here are pro coal and there is not much belief in renewable energy.

David

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Post By: coaledsweat » Wed. Mar. 14, 2018 9:36 am

Stick to topic gents. Leave the name calling to FSC.

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Post By: Pacowy » Wed. Mar. 14, 2018 9:56 am

David, I'm just trying to be realistic about both coal and renewables. I don't think I "believe in" either beyond what is merited by their actual performance.

Mike

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David...
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Post By: David... » Wed. Mar. 14, 2018 10:53 am

I think posting about renewable energy and the demise of coal are not really good topics for this forum.

David


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