Stove Giving Me Problems

Modern and vintage hand fired coal stove are similar to a wood stove and in some cases can burn either. They need to be regulated and fed by hand usually every 12 to 24 hours depending on your usage. They require no power to operate making them ideal for rural settings with long power outages.
User avatar
jpete
Member
Posts: 10575
Joined: Thu. Nov. 22, 2007 9:52 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice
Location: Warwick, RI

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 4:19 am

When trying to idle this stove down, I am having a CO problem. The alarm goes off and I can smell sulfur in the house. I can run the stove hot but not at a low idle. The weather has been up and down so it's fairly often. I'm running a Harman Mk I with a MPD. I ran this same set up with no problem for 6 or 7 years but I'm in a new house with a new chimney and the teething pains are starting to get to me.

The chimney is a 21' outside masonry chimney with a 6"x6" terra cotta lining.

Is this where the baro comes in? Should I put a chimney cap on?

I was looking at the Field Controls site and it says for a chimney taller than 16', use the next size up (7") baro. Can this be accomplished simply by using adapters on either end of the pipe the baro would got into or should it increase right from the stove and then back down at the thimble.

I can post pictures if that would help. I appreciate any help, getting up to the CO detector at 3am is not fun.

Thanks
Jeff

“Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.”

Milton Friedman

Visit Hitzer Stoves

User avatar
coalkirk
Member
Posts: 4680
Joined: Wed. May. 17, 2006 8:12 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1981 EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: anthracite/rice coal
Location: Forest Hill MD

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 7:20 am

jpete wrote:I'm running a Harman Mk I with a MPD.


Does that mean a manual damper? Not supposed to use one. Get rid of it and install a baro and set it with a manometer. I assume you've checked the chimney for obstructions? Checked the door gaskets for condition? You say it's when you try to idle the stove down. Does that mean you are closing the manual damper down? If so that's probably the reason. To idle the mkI down, do it with the combustion air inlet cap. You could also turn off the fan or run it on a thermostat.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." —General George S. Patton

Burning rice coal in a 1981 EFM DF520, nut coal in a hand fired Jotul 507.

User avatar
Devil505
Member
Posts: 7110
Joined: Tue. Jul. 03, 2007 10:44 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000
Location: SE Massachusetts

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 8:24 am

Make sure your stove is getting enough air to burn where it's a new house. Sometimes you have to burn it hotter than you'd like to get the draft going good on warm days too.
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

User avatar
jpete
Member
Posts: 10575
Joined: Thu. Nov. 22, 2007 9:52 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice
Location: Warwick, RI

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 9:59 am

coalkirk wrote:
jpete wrote:I'm running a Harman Mk I with a MPD.


Does that mean a manual damper? Not supposed to use one. Get rid of it and install a baro and set it with a manometer. I assume you've checked the chimney for obstructions? Checked the door gaskets for condition? You say it's when you try to idle the stove down. Does that mean you are closing the manual damper down? If so that's probably the reason. To idle the mkI down, do it with the combustion air inlet cap. You could also turn off the fan or run it on a thermostat.


Yes, it's a manual damper. Like I said, I ran it at my other house with no problems for years. When I say idle it down, I mean I only have the air inlet knob open 1/2 to 1 turn. Outside temp was around 30* last night. We are expecting temps in the mid 40's to low 50's today so I didn't want to have the stove cranking.

Now you have me thinking about the door gaskets. I thought I replaced them this season but it might have been the beginning of last season.

Unless an animal crawled in there, I don't think it's a chimney obstruction. I cleaned it at the beginning of the season and the stove runs fine when I let it run.
Jeff

“Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.”

Milton Friedman

User avatar
Freddy
Member
Posts: 6603
Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined
Location: Orrington, Maine

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 11:24 am

You got lucky at the old house. It's time for a barometric damper. My $.02
Orrington, Maine
Fred

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

User avatar
titleist1
Member
Posts: 4404
Joined: Wed. Nov. 14, 2007 4:06 pm
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite
Location: Cecil County, MD

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 11:31 am

Something else to think about in addition to the others posts.....Is the new house much tighter than the old house? Maybe the stove is starved for combustion air and that creates problems when idling. ...edit.....sorry Devil....missed your post with the same idea initially...
I drive a VW TDI, heat my home & workshop with two coal stokers and have two vintage JD diesel tractors....
The EPA just loves me!!

User avatar
Uglysquirrel
Member
Posts: 1160
Joined: Mon. Jan. 07, 2008 8:27 pm
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 12:21 pm

One thing not discussed too much is the basement chimney clean out vent, make sure the door is latched with a good seal, my door has a couple layers of duck tape over it and the surrounding concrete to ensure the baby is sealed big time, air intake at this location will lower the draft.

Hope this helps.

bruce

User avatar
jpete
Member
Posts: 10575
Joined: Thu. Nov. 22, 2007 9:52 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice
Location: Warwick, RI

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 12:43 pm

Now that's something to think about. I know the clean out door on that side of the chimney is basically not even attached. Just kind of propped up with a brick holding it from falling over.
Jeff

“Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.”

Milton Friedman

Visit Hitzer Stoves

User avatar
jpete
Member
Posts: 10575
Joined: Thu. Nov. 22, 2007 9:52 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice
Location: Warwick, RI

Post Sat. Nov. 29, 2008 12:46 pm

titleist1 wrote:Something else to think about in addition to the others posts.....Is the new house much tighter than the old house? Maybe the stove is starved for combustion air and that creates problems when idling. ...edit.....sorry Devil....missed your post with the same idea initially...


It's probably a bit "tighter". My old house was built in 1951 and had no insulation in the walls with about 4" in the attic. This house was built in 1973 with insulation in the walls and around 10" in the attic. I opened the window next to the stove just a crack to try to see if that was the problem.
Jeff

“Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.”

Milton Friedman

User avatar
captcaper
Member
Posts: 574
Joined: Thu. May. 29, 2008 11:55 am
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman Super Magnum
Stove/Furnace Model: Super Magnum Stoker
Location: Northern N.H.

Post Mon. Dec. 01, 2008 7:01 am

Was the chimmey built after the house was built? The chimmey I had built on my old house was built wrong. It didn't clear the roof like the codes said for one. Another is I was in a crowded area and had a tree right next to the house plus the liner was 8x8 tile. This new one I have clears the peak by almost 4 ft. and is 6" SS with 1" insulation and works so good.
Coalkirk I can't see why a MPD is so bad. If you look at the air intake hole and the MPD holes and gaps around the damper inside the pipe I would think it is enough to let the burned air by. You can see the dancing ladies behaveing to prove there is good draft with the MPD closed. I never had a problem with a MPD. Only the chimmey before mentioned above. Even with the MPD open all the way the chimmey would draft badly on SW winds on warmer days. It would even blow back steadly into the room. Once the winds changed from the S or SW it would work fine.
Now that I have used this setup since Oct. and have a feel for it I'll try opening the MPD and adjusting the air intake to see how it burns to compare.
Current Stove Harman Super Magnum
Owned before
Harman Mark III Wood Parlor stove Scandia Wood Stove 2 Chubby Coal Stoves Small Pot Belly Cast Iron

User avatar
LsFarm
Member
Posts: 7385
Joined: Sun. Nov. 20, 2005 8:02 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland
Location: Michigan

Post Mon. Dec. 01, 2008 8:46 am

Manual dampers don't control draft,, they throttle air flow.. You need to control maximum draft for an airtight stove.. there is very little airflow through an airtight stove.. But the draft can vary widely with wind and temperature changes..

A manual damper had a place in the days when stoves were not airtight, and you couldn't control incoming air to the fire,, so you slowed the rate of flow up the flue pipe with a manual damper.. The barometric damper was designed to limit draft for automatic appliances burning oil and gas, where draft was critical.

Our new airtight coal stoves are much easier to control and adjust burn temps and burn rates with a barometric damper..

Greg L
Burning Pea/Buckwheat through an antique stoker [semi retired SSboiler],
Running an Axeman-Anderson 260M boiler burning Pea, About 150-250#per day
Farming, Fixing, Fabricating and Flying: 'spare time' what's that?

User avatar
CoalHeat
Site Moderator
Posts: 8327
Joined: Sat. Feb. 10, 2007 9:48 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert
Location: Stillwater, New Jersey

Post Mon. Dec. 01, 2008 9:38 am

jpete, I have a similar set up and chimney as you, although mine is taller.

Get rid of the manual damper, Harman specifically forbids the use of one with this stove. Install a baro and set it with a manometer to -.05" WC with a full fire and a warm chimney. Mine has been poking along with the air open 3/4 of a turn, the blower off, using Harmony nut coal. The baro is open quite a bit.

The MPD is restricting the flow of hot gases into the chimney, the chimney is cooling off, the result of that is the drafting ability of the chimney drops like a rock. With the baro the flow of warm air up the chimney will be constant, the chimney will stay warmer and the result will be more draft.

Use the MPD as a doorstop.
dcontrolsillustration.jpg
Baro Damper Theory.txt
(768 Bytes) Downloaded 21 times
Heating a circa 1832 farmhouse with a Harman Magnafire Mark I & a 1959 EFM 350 (heating DHW).
100% Oil Free!
"It's what we learn after we think we know it all that counts."

User avatar
jpete
Member
Posts: 10575
Joined: Thu. Nov. 22, 2007 9:52 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice
Location: Warwick, RI

Post Mon. Dec. 01, 2008 8:08 pm

Thanks Wood'nCoal. I'd like to do this "right"(where right means whatever works) but I had a question on the baro dampers. On the same page you got your diagram from, http://fieldcontrols.com/draftcontrol.php if you go all the way down to "Choosing the right size", they have a graph which states for a 6" flue, with a chimney height above 16', use a 7" damper. My chimney is 21'.

How would this be accomplished in your opinion?

Use a step ring before and after the piece with the baro? Step up just after the stove collar then back down just before the chimney? Use a T like in the diagram and a step ring behind the baro to mate it to the 6" pipe?

I hate spending money twice and would like to get an informed opinion before I do.

Thanks.
Jeff

“Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.”

Milton Friedman

User avatar
CoalHeat
Site Moderator
Posts: 8327
Joined: Sat. Feb. 10, 2007 9:48 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert
Location: Stillwater, New Jersey

Post Mon. Dec. 01, 2008 9:59 pm

I guess I missed that graph, which probably explains why my baro stays so far open all the time. :doh:

I'll leave the final say up to the other experts here as far as installing the 7" baro, but I think you can just get a reducer to fit the baro and plug it into the 6" pipe.

Your chimney is probably like mine...once it warms up the draft is like a vacuum cleaner.
Heating a circa 1832 farmhouse with a Harman Magnafire Mark I & a 1959 EFM 350 (heating DHW).
100% Oil Free!
"It's what we learn after we think we know it all that counts."

User avatar
rockwood
Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun. Sep. 21, 2008 7:37 pm
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Stokermatic coal furnace
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Rockwood Stoveworks Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: Malleable/Monarch Range
Coal Size/Type: Soft coal: Lump and stoker (slack coal)
Location: Utah

Post Mon. Dec. 01, 2008 10:10 pm

Woodncoal is on the right track here.

The main problem is the chimney cooling off and not making good draft, a common problem with exterior chimneys
I think a six in baro damper would be fine but I can't say it will fix this draft problem.

Good thing it's a 6x6 flue, any larger and the problem would be even worse.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -Goethe

Visit Hitzer Stoves

Post Reply

Return to “Hand Fired Coal Stoves & Furnaces Using Anthracite”