Daughter Ripped Off?

Modern and vintage hand fired coal stove are similar to a wood stove and in some cases can burn either. They need to be regulated and fed by hand usually every 12 to 24 hours depending on your usage. They require no power to operate making them ideal for rural settings with long power outages.
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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 4:09 am

Freddy wrote:I'd get the door in hand so you can use the darn thing, then call the credit card compnay and dispute it.
I have a spare door Freddy. The door is no problem.
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 5:43 am

Copy of an email I just sent sent to my daughter with the first draft of a letter I am proposing she send to the stove dealer.
Any suggestions on the wording?

To Whom it may concern,

(go through the details of the transaction, that the driver said they forgot the door on delivery & what happened in your contacts yesterday. Send them a link to the coal stove forum if you want
Daughter Ripped Off?

Then add this:

Selling me a coal stove, & then trying to get more money for the stove door (without which any coal stove is useless) is a violation of Massachusetts Consumer Protection law, Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 93A. ( it's like a car dealer selling a new car but, on delivery (after payment) advising the customer that the engine is an optional extra for $2,000.00 more! )

Therefore:

1. I have already contacted my credit card company & advised them that I dispute your bill as I was defrauded by your company. (credit card companies are required to assist their customer in cases of fraud by federal law)
2. If I receive the stove door within one week of this date, delivered to my home and properly installed on the stove, at no additional charge, I will contact my credit card company & advise them to go ahead with your payment.
3. If the full terms of item # 2 (above) are not met, I will purchase a stove door elsewhere and be happy to answer any legal action you may care to take,in court.


I am on firm legal ground and you are in violation of Massachusetts state consumer protection laws.


This whole matter was totally unnecessary and you must know you have no legal or ethical grounds to stand on.



Signed,
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

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traderfjp
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 7:17 am

Did u check the price of the stove with the door from another dealer? Maybe the dealer charges extra because there are two different doors. Granted I think that the stove should come with the "standard" door.

I once disputed a charge and when I couldn't work it out with the dealer and he sued me. I ened up paying him the original price plus extra because the lawyer got involved. It would have cost me much more to hire a lawyer, loose a days pay and go to court. He may not have a lawyer on retainer like the co. I dealt with and so he might not be so quick to sue. But once a lawyer gets involved they will want the original price plus extra fees.

Did it say anywhere on the receipt that a door was extra or that he wasn't supplying a door?

I hope it all works out.
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert in any coal or plumbing related field. I only post my own experiences, research and common sense. If you choose to use any of the information in this post or any other post you do so at your own risk.

CapeCoaler
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 7:37 am

Before you fire off a letter....
Get your ducks lined up...

Lomasney created a famous saying on the importance of discretion:
""Never write if you can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can wink." Eliot Spitzer recently added the warning, "never put it in e-mail."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Lomasney

Call first, see if it broke the law and you have grounds...

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=cagoterminal&L=3&L0=H ... &csid=Cago
Before Filing a Complaint
The Attorney General’s Consumer Hotline, (617) 727-8400, is staffed with trained professionals who will review your complaint and determine whether it is appropriate for a free, voluntary mediation service we provide, or whether to direct you to another government agency or other resource. If the complaint is one we believe we may be able to assist you with, the Consumer Hotline staff will attempt to contact the business or other organization on your behalf to see if the matter can be resolved outside of court.

In addition, we will suggest that you contact the business involved in this dispute, if you have not done so already, to try to resolve your dispute directly with the business. Please note that in order to expedite the processing and resolution of your complaint, we may refer it to a local consumer group that serves your area. If you have questions concerning the specific application or interpretation of the law, we will suggest that you consult a private attorney. If you do not have an attorney we will provide information that may assist you in locating an attorney.

Before filing a complaint, please review the other consumer protection pages on this website for information that may help you to decide whether to file a complaint with the Attorney General’s Office or use other resources that may be more appropriate for your situation
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=cagoterminal&L=3&L0=H ... &csid=Cago

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterminal&L=3&L0=Ho ... &csid=Eoca
As a general matter, a consumer suing under section 9 of the law must demonstrate the following to prove the claim:

1. That the consumer sent a detailed 30-day demand letter (see 30-Day Demand Letter guide available by calling 888-283-3757 or go to it on the web;
2. That he or she is a "consumer" plaintiff - someone engaging in commerce primarily for personal, family or household purposes;
3. That the defendant's actions were "unfair" or "deceptive;" and
4. That these actions resulted in a "loss of money or property, real or personal" to that consumer.
Generally, a court can award a consumer plaintiff who proves the above compensatory or actual damages. Multiple (double or treble) damages are also available if the plaintiff can prove (1) the defendant willfully and knowingly violated Chapter 93A or (2) the defendant refused to grant relief in bad faith with knowledge or reason to know that his acts violated Chapter 93A. An individual consumer can also collect reasonable attorney's fees and costs incurred in the lawsuit under certain circumstances detailed in Chapter 93A, § 9(4).
Local consumer assistance consul will be of great help

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterminal&L=4&L0=Ho ... &csid=Eoca
I am not an engineer, train or otherwise!
I stay at a Holiday Inn at least once a year!
Most of all I do have common sense and a practical application of logic.
Oh, add humor, on the dry side, along with a wee bit 'o sarcasm.

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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 7:38 am

traderfjp wrote:Did u check the price of the stove with the door from another dealer?
Yes. American Energy Systems sells the TLC2000 for $1400.00 with a door. My daughter paid $1600.00 to a dealer 5 miles away form them.
traderfjp wrote:But once a lawyer gets involved they will want the original price plus extra fees.
I have dealt with the law all of my life & I would be happy to defend my proposed action in any court at any time.
I have represented myself in a few civil actions & I know the ropes. (I also know how much the plaintiff must spend to bring suit & pay a lawyer to represent him. They'd always prefer to settle, out of court)
traderfjp wrote:Did it say anywhere on the receipt that a door was extra or that he wasn't supplying a door?
The sale was done over the phone & I don' know if any paperwork was ever done. I think the bill of sale just listed what the stove was & had check marks next to various parts. No mention of a door not being included & I think a reasonable person would expect a $1600.00 coal stove to at least come with a door....The defense rests your honor!
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 7:47 am

CapeCoaler wrote:Before you fire off a letter....
Get your ducks lined up...
I appreciate the advise CapeCoaler but all the "ducks" I care about are lined up & in our favor. The ducks being the money that my daughter will not be paying for a useless piece of scrap metal, delivered to her house. We do not have to take any action or do anything! (we have, what amounts to a free Harman TLC2000 that can be made operable by purchasing a $180.00 part (door) from another dealer) It takes years & lots of money to bring suit, & I'm just pissed off enough to say...."Bring It On!" :mad:

It's my daughter's decision though.
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

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coalkirk
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 7:50 am

Well one thing is for sure, any stove dealer that would deliver a stove to a consumer without a door is dumber than dirt. Such a dealer in Dartmouth Ma, zipcode 02748 could be found by going to the Harman site and using the find a dealer link.
:lol:
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." —General George S. Patton

Burning rice coal in a 1981 EFM DF520, nut coal in a hand fired Jotul 507.

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Adamiscold
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 7:54 am

Devil505 wrote:
Razzler wrote:Call some other Harman dealers and get a price on the same stove with a door that should tell you if you paid for the door or not.
Already called American Energy Systems in New Bedford, Mass where I bought my stove. The owner (Rainee) is a great guy & told me that the door is shipped in a separate box from Harman, to the dealer. That Harman does charge a separate price to the dealer for the 2 different types of doors, but that he always includes the black door with any tsove & the gold door is an optional upgrade.

I'm going to call my daughter & recommend she go with my option 2! :mad:
Devil,

I was checking my notes when I was looking at buying stoves back in Feb-March and I have Bernardston Farmer's Supply with a price quote of $1549 with a black door. I don't recall it be separate or anything. But I do know when you buy one of those cheap $400 wood stoves that they come without the door or the legs. I would dispute the credit card charges until they supply her with a brand new door for free.
Adam

http://www.homepower.com <-- Great magazine.

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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 7:59 am

coalkirk wrote:Well one thing is for sure, any stove dealer that would deliver a stove to a consumer without a door is dumber than dirt. Such a dealer in Dartmouth Ma, zipcode 02748 could be found by going to the Harman site and using the find a dealer link.
I can tell you it was not:

AMERICAN ENERGY SAVERS
302 N. FRONT STREET / PO BOX 61295
NEW BEDFORD, MA 02746
508-992-2020


That's where I bought my stove & they are great to deal with.

(You are correct about using the Harman website to find other Harman dealers in that area though ) ;)
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 8:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

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titleist1
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Location: Cecil County, MD

Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 8:02 am

This is a case of a dealer, and maybe it was just that particular salesperson, that didn't know the product. As stated above, Harman prices the stoves as a base price and the choice of doors is an adder. The salesperson has to know enough to realize this when pricing for the customer and ordering it from Harmon.

Mistakes happen, but the dealer should make an effort to correct the situation since it was their fault. Any cost on their part should be considered the cost of their education on this product. I bet they remember for the next time, though!

Also, don't bother trying to call Harmon, you will only get more frustrated.
I drive a VW TDI, heat my home & workshop with two coal stokers and have two vintage JD diesel tractors....
The EPA just loves me!!

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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 8:05 am

Adamiscold wrote:I would dispute the credit card charges until they supply her with a brand new door for free.
That's exactly what I'm recommending to my daughter! ( I don't know what she wants to do but, funny thing is, she is stubborn & pig headed sometimes!!....Must take after her Mother! :lol: )
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 8:11 am

titleist1 wrote:This is a case of a dealer, and maybe it was just that particular salesperson, that didn't know the product.
No....This is a case where a dealer appears to be trying to rip off a customer! My daughter said she talked with salesmen & managers & they all refused to provide a door without more money!
It wasn't a case that they "didn't know the product" as much as it was a case that they.... "Didn't know the customer!!" :)

(My daughter owns & knows how to use a Walther PPK too! :lol: :lol: ....Trust me...you don't want to mess with any of my daughters!)
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 9:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

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beatle78
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 8:46 am

I would go the cc route! They have teams of people ready to deal with issues just like this.

I called up a cc once b/c I wasn't happy with a charge. they refunded it immediately! The cc company has more weight than you think. If that dealer loses there cc account they may go out of business and they probably don't want that!

Question, why didn't your daughter order the stove from your dealer if it was only 5 miles away? (not that it matters now)

hehe, I used to drive by that Harman dealer on rt 6 in Dartmouth when I was going to UMASSD. I never got a chance to stop in though... now I'm glad I didn't.

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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 9:11 am

beatle78 wrote:Question, why didn't your daughter order the stove from your dealer if it was only 5 miles away? (not that it matters now)
He had none in stock & won't till probably Spring at the earliest.

Edit: Small world..........."hehe, I used to drive by that Harman dealer on rt 6 in Dartmouth when I was going to UMASSD. I never got a chance to stop in though... now I'm glad I didn't."

my youngest & oldest daughters both went to UMASSD! (not my middle daughter who bought the stove)
(It was still SMU when my oldest went there)
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

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Devil505
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Post Tue. Sep. 09, 2008 9:33 am

Just talked to my daughter (who said "I'll handle this myself Dad.....I'm not 5 years old any more!") & verified where she bought the stove which is:

ASHAWAY HEARTH & CHIMNEY
703 STATE ROAD
DARTMOUTH, MA 02747
War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way till you can.
Winston Churchill
Shaking & Poking The TLC2000 Video

Visit Hitzer Stoves

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