Principles of Heating

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Jan. 25, 2023 7:04 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jan. 25, 2023 6:47 pm
Hi Paul. The better the stove design the flatter the curve. :yes:
And the happier the owner. :D

It's too bad that modern stove builders can't "build" on that old-time knowledge of increasing the heat extracting surface area. Steve (Kingcoal) proved it can be done and use about 25% less coal with his modern stove conversion experiments. I should think a higher efficiency stove - gained from having long internal flues would sell very well.

Maybe they will improve now that coal is so expensive,.... much like when fuel oil burners had to get better when fuel oil prices shot up in the late 1970's ????

Paul


 
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Post by waytomany?s » Wed. Jan. 25, 2023 8:51 pm

? Does the rule of no more than 2-90 elbows apply when you're using a baseburner or some such? I mean, how many angles or corners in that type of extended exhaust path?

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Jan. 25, 2023 10:00 pm

waytomany?s wrote:
Wed. Jan. 25, 2023 8:51 pm
? Does the rule of no more than 2-90 elbows apply when you're using a baseburner or some such? I mean, how many angles or corners in that type of extended exhaust path?
Not sure. The Glenwood Oaks and base heaters came standard with one cast iron 90-degree elbow and would often need another elbow for the stove pipe into a chimney. So, two 90 degrees was pretty much standard back then and does not seem to hurt any. And that elbow often had a check damper built into it to further reduce draft strength when burning wood.

And the back-pipe Oaks have a 90 and a 180 degree bend inside the back pipe... which may have had another 90 from the stove pipe into the chimney.

The old timers also tended to use much longer runs of pipe indoors - often across to the other side of a room, or end of a store or church so as to extract more heat.

Paul

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Jan. 26, 2023 12:01 am

waytomany?s wrote:
Wed. Jan. 25, 2023 8:51 pm
? Does the rule of no more than 2-90 elbows apply when you're using a baseburner or some such? I mean, how many angles or corners in that type of extended exhaust path?
Couple that base burner with a Rosemont Radiator and have even more turns and twists. It like to think those were kept close to the stove but I don’t really know.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Jan. 26, 2023 12:09 am

Hoytman wrote:
Thu. Jan. 26, 2023 12:01 am
Couple that base burner with a Rosemont Radiator and have even more turns and twists. It like to think those were kept close to the stove but I don’t really know.
They could be on a floor above if the stove pipe went up there.

Paul

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Jan. 26, 2023 9:49 am

Sunny Boy wrote:
Thu. Jan. 26, 2023 12:09 am
They could be on a floor above if the stove pipe went up there.

Paul
One would think a stove on the floor below would be pumping out the heat then because of little insulation in homes back then, even no insulation. I certainly wouldn’t think one of those could be used with an idling stove, but there again, I don’t know that much about them. I just think they’re neat.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Jan. 26, 2023 11:09 am

Hoytman wrote:
Thu. Jan. 26, 2023 9:49 am
One would think a stove on the floor below would be pumping out the heat then because of little insulation in homes back then, even no insulation.
That leads us to #4. The cheapest fuel is the fuel you don't need to buy.

I am not suggesting to spend thousands on a remodel to save hundreds of dollars in fuel per year, but most homes have some low hanging fruit that can be addressed for low cost. Usually air sealing and insulating the attic floor has the quickest return.


 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Jan. 26, 2023 10:39 pm

Absolutely agree!

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Fri. Jan. 27, 2023 3:47 pm

Great way of putting it Rob, I think I read or heard somewhere that wall insulation only accounts for about 28% of heat loss. I think ceiling, Windows and trims and drafts were the bigger killer. I've resolved not to take on the project of insulating my house unless I do it right, sealing it up proper instead of just a quick half hearted attempt. I lose a good bit thru my basement too

 
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Post by ColdHouse » Tue. Jan. 31, 2023 9:50 am

I am expecting an arctic blast in a couple of days. After today the temps will definitely be cooler at least for a few days. I think I will leave the stove settings as they are. The only thing I will do differently is keep the ash pan door open for awhile after tending the stove to get the new bed of coal going good. With the current strategy, after a fill there is no visible fire or glowing coals. I am confident that with the way I have been burning, it is several hours before the fire bed is hot. I will jump start the heating up of the fire bed and leave the vents alone. I am hoping that the jump start of the fire is enough to allow the settings to maintain the heat. The goal is to not use too much more coal than I have been using.
I would estimate that I presently am using about 25# per stove per day.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Jan. 31, 2023 10:06 am

Retro_Origin wrote:
Fri. Jan. 27, 2023 3:47 pm
Great way of putting it Rob, I think I read or heard somewhere that wall insulation only accounts for about 28% of heat loss. I think ceiling, Windows and trims and drafts were the bigger killer. I've resolved not to take on the project of insulating my house unless I do it right, sealing it up proper instead of just a quick half hearted attempt. I lose a good bit thru my basement too
If you look at the real R value of modern double-pane windows, it's still not much compared to a well-insulated wall. Back in the Jimmy Carter years, with the push to save energy, one of the stats that came out was adding heavy curtains and drapes can save 15% on fuel costs. It still amazes me to see so many homes without curtains at night.

I've saved a lot just by using the plastic coverings for big windows in this old house. You can see a big difference by putting a piece of tape on the glass and measure the surface temp of the tape with an IR gun, then after the plastic is up, measure at the tape again. The IR gun will read through any clear material to the tape. There's a big drop in temp on the glass as the plastic holds in heat.

Paul

 
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Post by k-2 » Tue. Jan. 31, 2023 10:44 am

Since every house is essentially a large chimney specially a 3 story house like mine ,the warmer the house the greater the chimney effect. Iv noticed my heating requirements fall off to near nothing at 40 to 50 degrees but compound as the temps get under 25-30. My house temp is normally 77 to feel comfortable. My setback is to 74-75.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Tue. Jan. 31, 2023 11:16 am

Retro_Origin wrote:
Fri. Jan. 27, 2023 3:47 pm
Great way of putting it Rob, I think I read or heard somewhere that wall insulation only accounts for about 28% of heat loss. I think ceiling, Windows and trims and drafts were the bigger killer. I've resolved not to take on the project of insulating my house unless I do it right, sealing it up proper instead of just a quick half hearted attempt. I lose a good bit thru my basement too
Putting on a good hat and a pair of boots in the winter goes a long way towards keeping you warm, and the same concept works on your house. Seal up those drafts around the foundation and insulate the rim joist with foam. A good insulation contractor can be a big help with a project like this.

 
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Post by k-2 » Tue. Jan. 31, 2023 12:34 pm

Very cold outdoor temps is a good time to find all the leaks. Even the smallest opening has cold air rushing in as if theres a fan blowing it in. ON the second floor the heat is going out so you wont feel it from inside.Iv seen people with open windows on the second floor in winter . They say ,"well theres no cold air coming in that window". :lol:

 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. Jan. 31, 2023 3:22 pm

Coldhouse,
I think it might be a good idea to monitor how long you leave each stoves ash pan door open. That is, get an idea how long it takes once open to tend stove, record that and then add and record any additional time you leave the door open. Maybe pick a set time for the first tend or two, then the next two maybe add a couple minutes to each stove at tend, then a few more minutes next tend, and so on. Just to see what happens.



Paul,
You are absolutely correct. Heavy curtains make a huge difference. Took me a while but I finally convinced the wife of this.

We have two large 5’x5’ picture windows each having additional 1’x5’ side windows attached to the sides of each large window.

Leave those curtains open on a night 20F…especially a night below 15F and the house temp drops 6-8 degrees. Close those curtains and we only lose about 1-3 degrees. Often times we only lose 1-2 degrees. I haven’t recorded this as it’s only from memory but there’s 3 of us here that has noticed the difference in closing those curtains…and they’re heavy by todays standard since few people even use curtains, but they’re not like the old time real heavy curtains…but they do go down to the floor. I certainly think they help to save fuel.

Rob,
I’m pretty certain that if people contact their electric provider most will assist you by setting up a blower door test to see how much the hole is leaking. They do a test for a baseline then seal up and insulate and do second blower door test to show how much it helped. I believe they will help you set up an insulation contractor or work with one you may already have.

I did it at my other house and it was a great experience, was cheap, and heating and cooling costs dropped dramatically. I need to have it done here as well.


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