Fire keeps dying overnight - Hitzer 254

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FOilCompanies
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Post by FOilCompanies » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 12:37 pm

I thought I had this thing figured out last year. This is my second season with it.

Managed to make it to 12/22 on wood before having to engage coal. Cleaned it out, emptied ash pan, got coal fire going with wood kindling. Coal fire blazed up well and I thought everything was going fine.

But it seems like I'm fighting the stove every day. Ash pan door vents open a tiny bit and rear thermostat plate wide open as I was previously instructed to do - fire will still die down. I have to keep the ash pan door vents wide open for it to throw enough heat to keep us going during this "Arctic blast".

Overnight, though I'll go to sleep with it at 450 and the thermostat set to maintain that, I'll wake up and it's 150. This has been three mornings in a row now. I've managed to bring the fire back from the dead every time without using wood, including this morning when the thermometer on the side got down significantly below 100, but I'm tired of fighting with it every morning. I had to do this a lot of mornings last year too.

If I only shake it barely enough to get that first tiny red ember coming down, it gets ash-bound and the fire will die down. If I shake it long enough to get a decent amount of glow shining down into the ash pan, I will lose so many hot embers from the very first place to drop them that the fire will die down. I seem to be ash-bound all the time and I can never get more than a very small area of glow without dumping a lot of hot embers. Lately the pile has been getting to where it's an upside down horseshoe shape that remains afire by the morning. I can get that to blaze up to where the whole pile is orange and the side thermometer is over 500, but when it dies down again, back to that same horseshoe shape.

For an overnighter and generally during the day as well, I keep my flue damper just off fully closed, as previously instructed by people more knowledgeable than I. But even after getting a very thorough and personal course of instruction on how to work my stove last year, I was never able to keep it going more than two weeks without having to restart or resurrect the fire using wood. I want to wake up in the morning with the stove no lower than 300 and an easy time of getting it to blaze back up to 400+.

Because, especially on top of how the greedy coal industry has followed all other energy industries in thinking that they just weren't fleecing their customers for enough profit last year, I'm thinking very strongly about going all wood starting next season. It can be had for only the cost of chainsaw supplies and it's easy to work with.

For what it's worth, I'm using Blaschak nut size anthracite that I got this month, and I'm dumping the ash pan at least once a day. My stove is in a sort of alcove area, and I have two fans blowing at it to circulate air as I choose to. Some people may think I'm "fooling the thermostat" by using the fans, but if anything it should make the thermostat think it's cooler than it is, rather than hotter, keeping the plate open. I've been watching the thermostat and thermometers to make sure I'm getting what should be a good draft condition. When the stove is at operating temperature and the stack is at 100 or so, I only use the fan that blows room temperature air from floor level straight at the stove. Generally I only use the stack fan (blowing air past the stack toward the rest of the house) when I have everything opened up to make the stove gain heat quickly and the stack is at 200+. I usually don't have either fan on while I'm fighting with it in the morning.

Any thoughts?


 
nut
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Post by nut » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 12:47 pm

Maybe you need to poke the ash to prevent it from building up. I noticed Blaschak has a lot of stuff in it that doesn't burn well and snuffs out the air flow. I never had issues with my fire bed until I switched to Blaschak 3 years ago after 38 years of burning coal.

 
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davidmcbeth3
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 1:07 pm

Its not a nuclear furnace. My 503 has been eating 80-100 lbs / day during this mild weather that they call an arctic blast.

I shook my stove this morning after leaving it at 350F the night before (was still warm, 7 hrs later at 350F until the shake lol)...added 10 lbs at a time over period of an hour. Because the coal I put in there last night disappeared ... I expect its the coal companies coming into the house while I'm asleep, stealing my coal from the stove. Cat watch-cat is useless ! kek

? How many sq ft of dwelling ? How many lbs/day been recently burning ?

https://hitzer.com/our-products/stoves-furnaces/model-254
^ 254 is a 75K BTU unit ... my 503 is 80K.

During colder times, it requires more attending. I've been emptying my ashpan 4-5x a day during this cold spell. I could even do it more if I wanted more consistent temps inside.. but I'm lazy.

Last night, midnight, left stove and inside was 70F. Awoke to 65F. Now, 5 hrs later, at 68F. Stove is burning hot now...when I shook, level went very low..slowly add.

Is my 503 meant to accommodate my dwelling , in the cold weather. Sure. A bigger BTU unit would make it easier but this weather is once in a while.

Just shake more often, resulting in a lower coal amt. to be added. At night, decide if you a) want it warmer during sleep (knowing it might take longer in morn to get it going again) or b) OK for colder during sleep and able to get the stove hot again quicker. To each their own. One can also get up and service the stove too at night.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 1:14 pm

nut wrote:
Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 12:47 pm
Maybe you need to poke the ash to prevent it from building up. I noticed Blaschak has a lot of stuff in it that doesn't burn well and snuffs out the air flow. I never had issues with my fire bed until I switched to Blaschak 3 years ago after 38 years of burning coal.
Running with the Santa Clause coal this year (previous few using Reading, I miss the pieces of pallet wood that comes with it).

No problems yet with the nut coal. Had 1 clinker but it was mitigated in a day by itself.

 
Hoytman
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Post by Hoytman » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 2:38 pm

As I recall your 254 is a radiant model and as such you are the only radiant Hitzer user that I am aware of since I joined this forum.

The only reason that is relevant to the conversation is because your stove does NOT have the built in stove damper that blower models have.

I also do NOT recall you ever getting and hooking up a Manometer to see how strong your draft is.

Below 15F and with even a breeze I generally can keep my draft where it normally would cruise just by using my pipe damper. However, my 354 is a blower model and I also keep the built in stove damper fully closed (always 1/3 open by design) and I still close the pipe damper in these cold snaps to keep my draft lower…and it also DOES help hold heat in the stove lowering coal usage as the thermostat doesn’t cycle nearly as often.

That is relevant because your only means of stopping heat loss up your chimney, and therefore increasing stove temperature as well, is to use the Manometer to see how much draft you have and therefore how much heat is being expelled up the chimney.

In these types of cold snaps it could be that a single manual pipe damper is not sufficient enough to slow your draft and better maintain a higher stove temperature.

As I recall your chimney is very short and the house is sort of a hard layout pattern to effectively and efficiently move heat throughout your house. Just because the chimney is short doesn’t mean it isn’t a drafting monster, but there is no way to tell, and therefore our assistance is limited until you get and install a Manometer:

1. So you know what the stove/chimney combination is doing.
2. So we can get a much better sense of what is happening. The Manometer information tells us a lot to be able to better assist you. We’re guessing without that information and so are you.

The point it this…you could need a 2nd pipe damper to sufficiently slow your draft and also hold additional heat in your stove.

As I also recall we had a heck of a time convincing you to load your stove up to the top of the brick retainer until you gain more experience. With Oliver Power’s help I have learned “other” ways of loading. If you fill your stove full there is no way should be running out of coal and heat by morning unless the 254 is grossly undersized for your home and I don’t recall that being the case.

No need to shake more than twice a day. Don’t worry about some hot coals shaken into ash pan. The goal is to get a strong orange glow visible from under the grates. If you only get a faint glow after shaking you can lose the fire.

As I recall myself and Oliver Power went to great lengths to try and help you. If you haven’t made any additional changes then I’m not so sure we can assist you any further as our hands are sort of tied.

 
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exwoodburner
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Post by exwoodburner » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 4:02 pm

FOilCompanies wrote:
Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 12:37 pm
It can be had for only the cost of chainsaw supplies and it's easy to work with.
False. I used to think this too. I burned wood for close to 20 years. What’s your time worth? The amount of time and effort required to supply enough wood to heat an average size house all winter on wood alone is enough to make it not worth it. Never mind the fact you will need to feed your stove every 4-5 hours. Again what’s your time worth? Set an alarm halfway through the night to get up and feed the stove so it’s not out when you wake up. Like I said, I have wood for 20 years. I am fairly new to coal burning. There is no comparison. I think wood “costs” more.

As for your Hitzer not keeping a fire. It sounds like to me the fire is getting ash bound. Sometimes it takes more than just using the shaker handle alone. Every 2-3 days I have to poke my fire bed from beneath with a 90 degree poker from the ash door compartment. (I have a harman mark 1). I need to do this around the perimeter of the firebox from below. Also I was told by someone a lot more knowledgeable than me that the newer Hitzers are not true coal burners anymore. Since they are designed and advertised to also burn wood that there are inherent design features that make burning coal “more difficult”. Not sure if there is any truth to this but it sounds like there could be some truth to it. Try poking your dead areas from below every few days first and go from there.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 4:19 pm

nut wrote:
Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 12:47 pm
Maybe you need to poke the ash to prevent it from building up. I noticed Blaschak has a lot of stuff in it that doesn't burn well and snuffs out the air flow. I never had issues with my fire bed until I switched to Blaschak 3 years ago after 38 years of burning coal.

You may have a bad batch ?

I bought 6 tons of Blaschak nut at the end of last October. Burned though about two tons so far and it has been very good. 16 seasons, 9 months a year, using 9-10 tons a year in two stoves. I've used other brands - including Blaschak's both bagged and bulk, nut and stove size in the past. The Blaschak has consistently been among the best.

Paul


 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 4:31 pm

exwoodburner wrote:
Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 4:02 pm
False. I used to think this too. I burned wood for close to 20 years. What’s your time worth? The amount of time and effort required to supply enough wood to heat an average size house all winter on wood alone is enough to make it not worth it. Never mind the fact you will need to feed your stove every 4-5 hours. Again what’s your time worth? Set an alarm halfway through the night to get up and feed the stove so it’s not out when you wake up. Like I said, I have wood for 20 years. I am fairly new to coal burning. There is no comparison. I think wood “costs” more. ...................
This ^

Kid who worked for me, he and his mother spent almost all their free time after work in summer and fall in the woods cutting trees, loading, carting, splitting, and stacking until dark to get ten cords to get their farmhouse through the winter. Kid had no warm weather life outside of work and wood. :baby:

I bought cords of wood and even that was still too much work to cart it, stack it, and having to feed it every few hours. Then coming down every morning to a cold kitchen to restart it.

Wood can't be "free" enough. ;)

Paul

 
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Post by nut » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 4:43 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 4:19 pm
You may have a bad batch ?

" I bought 6 tons of Blaschak nut at the end of last October. Burned though about two tons so far and it has been very good. 16 seasons, 9 months a year, using 9-10 tons a year in two stoves. I've used other brands - including Blaschak's both bagged and bulk, nut and stove size in the past. The Blaschak has consistently been among the best. "



It would have to be 3 bad batches. 3 different years. 2 different suppliers. The stuff I burned for decades was way better. Not even close. This is why I don't get all the hoopla for Blaschak. It's one redeeming feature is that it has very little fines. I have unburnt black pieces that sparkle like mica. Shale like pieces that want to jam the grate. I use to shake the stove down, refill and walk away. Not this stuff. Constantly adjusting the primary air. I can get it to burn hot but I have to open it up to burn the rocks.

 
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Post by warminmn » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 4:58 pm

You need a manometer as mentioned. You can run it hot then Im thinking when it cools down some you lose draft and it nearly goes out. Being ashed up doesnt help that either.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 6:03 pm

The information about Hitzer’s not being coal burners anymore is ABSOLUTELY the reverse of what is true.

Due to 2020 EPA regulations in wood burning stove manufacturers are NOT allowed to “advertise” combo stoves, or wood/coal stoves anymore. The Hitzer’s are still built exactly like they were minus a few changes from older models…changes like a single load door on most models now (some Hitzer models still offer a double door option), wider doors, double ash lips, wider ash pans, multiple colors, ash pan door vents, etc.

They can in fact still burn wood but they cannot “advertise” to be able to burn wood. It’s a play in the wording game…not a design change. It has to do with the EPA wanting stoves to produce less smoke and therefore cleaner air. It’s about a world wide liberal agenda on climate change. Hitzer’s are indeed true coal burners still.

Also, gone are the days of burning wood huge amounts of wood for only 4-5 hours. That’s only if you have an old pre-EPA wood dragon.

Midsized to large modern wood burners are capable of burning anywhere from 5 hours to 40+ hours depending on needs and models chosen.

A local friend bought a used 2004 Blaze King model King stove, then put a new catalyst in it and is getting 45hr burns on less than half a load of wood, about 5-6 splits, with exhaust temperatures rivaling any coal stove made and far less ash to empty…far less. Most secondary tune stoves burn from 8-12 hours with many exceeding advertised burn times, some less than advertised.

Lots of new information available if you know where to look and who to ask.

I haven’t had any luck poking under the grates of my Hitzer. Poking above along the bricks does help.

In my Hitzer 354 the easiest shaking comes from burning pea coal. It needs fast and hard shaking with nut coal. Tending and shaking twice a day seems to work best in cold temps while milder temps seem to like once a day tending and shaking. If a mid-day shake is done it should be minimal in my stove, as I’m not concerned with seeing hot coals drip on a mid-day shake, that is rarely done.

The radiant 254/354 coal stoves seem to be a different and finicky animal in their own right. With no built in damper in the stove, like blower models have, there is also NO HEAT EXCHANGER in the “radiant” stove models, which means the heat can only go out of the stove, or up the chimney because there is no “battery” or heat sink built into the stove.

I’m not even sure there is a baffle inside the stove, although I would think their should be. The OP should be able to provide pictures of the upper inside of his firebox for the answer to that question.

Without a baffle and without a heat exchanger and/or a built in damper I can see heat being quickly lost up the chimney…especially if a Manometer is not being used to monitor draft.

I’m NOT saying a Manometer is necessary to run your stove. It isn’t necessary…until there is an issue. The manometer is the tool to use that will quite possibly tell you how to fix your issues.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 6:27 pm

I will also go against the grain of some, considering what I have learned about catalyst stoves, particularly about Blaze King wood stoves…

…They can indeed rival an anthracite coal stove in burn time (rumors are in some cases 60hours on a full load of wood) cool exhaust, depth of firebox, and less ash dumping per day (far less per day), clean burn, clean chimney. However they cost $3500-$6000 currently…if you can get one.

Wood burning with a Blaze King…depending on the area of the country buying wood can still be cheaper than buying coal.

Buying wood and having it delivered is only a little more work than packing bags of coal. Wood should be well seasoned for a couple years ahead of time to less than 20% or you will NOT have a good experience with a modern wood stove. You will need to stack the wood off of the ground and top cover it somewhere in a sunny name windy location to help wood dry further.

To me…dealing with coal ash daily and disposing of it is no less or no more trouble than stacking and handling bought wood. Bought wood, in my opinion and using a BK stove, is likely as easy as using my coal stove…in some cases easier.

Things to consider about a modern BK wood stove….
-Initial cost of stove.
-Dryness of wood is a must.
-Cost of buying wood, suppliers.
-Ability to stack wood close by and top cover.
-Need a high quality insulated Class A chimney for optimal performance and clean operation.
-Catalytic replacement costs
-Catalytic cleaning and longevity (10yrs/12k hrs)
-Long burn times.

Cutting your own wood is a different animal altogether … NOT meant to be compared with buying wood cheaply or to coal burning.

 
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Post by oliver power » Mon. Dec. 26, 2022 9:08 pm

After reading the posts, and Hoytman refreshing my memory from last season, I'm going to side with warminmn. I'm thinking the short chimney isn't drafting well unless a really hot fire. And that you may be over firing , burning up the longevity of the batch of coal. and once the stack temp drops, you loose draft, and then fire. Extend your chimney height a couple feet.

Also, there is no way you should have to run the ashpan vents wide open. Round, or a little more than round during a deep freeze should be max. Half moon is a good starting point. The back flapper should never be wide open unless cold stove.

You need to keep heat in the stove for it to radiate. Either hold it down with a manual damper (built in or pipe), or a longer path for gasses to travel, giving up BTU's. You want your chimney to be sipping on the stove pipe. Sounds like you are forcing your chimney to gulp.

And then there is ash bound, stove under sized, coal quality, etc.. Pictures would help. Inside, Outside, Chimney, Damper, etc..

How many square feet are you trying to heat? How are the windows, doors, insulation, etc..

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Tue. Dec. 27, 2022 12:57 am

https://hitzer.com/uploads/page/354-254_instructi ... d_2016.pdf

Hitzer provides installation specs ^^ if OP wanted to double check things

The stove also has an optional fan one can buy too...per Hitzer.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. Dec. 27, 2022 9:51 am

If you already have a radiant model there is no place to mount a fan. The blower models have a false back with an air chamber at the rear of the stove. Radiant models do not have this feature, so no place to mount a fan on a radiant model that I am aware of. I’m pretty sure there’s NOT even a heat shield mounted on the back of their radiant stoves. I’ve even asked (while at Hitzer) about the heat shield for a radiant model and got that “deer in the headlights” look in response. Not saying they won’t add one for you but the impression I got was like, “why mot just buy the blower model”.


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