Masonry chimney size for new ds stove

 
zachary193
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Post by zachary193 » Tue. Jun. 21, 2022 4:18 pm

I purchased a DS stoves energy max 160 within the last week . I currently used heating oil and electric . I figured with a 200 acre farm I have 90 acres of wood to cut . I am planning on heating 2400 square foot from the basement. Reasonably newer house (94),My question is with a 8” flue what size of masonry chimney does it take to vent this stove. I more than likely will use more hard coal than wood . Is an 8x12 liner enough to vent this stove . My chimney height will be 20 foot with is 3 feet higher than the peak of the roof . Thanks


 
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Post by kcarr » Tue. Jun. 21, 2022 5:15 pm

Zachary, 8" Masonry chimney should be plenty for that stove.. I have an 8" masonry chimney for my
Van Wert VA-600 and all works well. On cold windy days, chimney draft will suck your hat off !
Where are you located ? Ken

 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. Jun. 21, 2022 10:05 pm

For optimum performance from your stove match the chimney size to the stove outlet size. That is, calculate the square inches of the stove outlet and line your chimney the same for best performance. If you know the size of the stove outlet, then match it with the same size liner and you eliminate the calculating.

Is this an inside the home masonry chimney, or outside? Inside the home is best since the chimney will stay more warm giving a much better draft regardless if you burn wood or coal.

Clay liners can be insulated and some members here have installed them as such. Pauliewog has installed a few this way if my memory serves me correctly.

Also for your information and for those reading this into the future, stick with square or round liners regardless of size. Also know that there are round clay liners available from Sandkuhl or Superior Clay (Columbus, Ohio) that have tongue-n-groove joints so the liners stay aligned as you build upward.

Also, there is some debate about which liner performs or drafts the best (area in square inches being near equal), square or round liner.

 
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Post by zachary193 » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 12:24 am

I’m located in south western pa . The liners I can get that are readily available are 8x12 . The chimney will be on the outside of the home as well

 
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Post by Hoytman » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 1:55 am

What size block do you have existing, if any? We need more details.

That 8”x12” will give you issues with wood condensing creosote on the liner walls.

Are you building a new chimney or relining and old one?

8”x8” is more common at builders supply places than just about anything anymore and they are actually smaller than that on the inside measurements.

Most brick and block supply places in Ohio and PA get their clay liners from the place I mentioned in Ohio. They ship all over.

The DS Energymax 160 has an 8” outlet...you need an 8” chimney. Not bigger! Code says you can go up 1” in diameter or down 1”...that’s it. Best to match the stove outlet (8”) or expect some serious draft issues during certain temps and weather conditions and nearly every low burn you do.

Matching an existing liner is one thing. To build new, especially if it’s avoidable, with a rectangle liner just doesn’t make good sense. It’ll never draft as well as an 8” round or 8”x8”square liner. It will work, but that’s about it, and likely not without problems down the road. Plus, if you ever switch something stoves you’re likely screwed as well because that 8”x12” is too big and the draft vortex inside gets all messed up with the rectangle lining.

Then there’s warranty to worry about. Again, matching the stove will be recommended by DS and any installers worth their salt.

Can you be more specific as to details whether new construction, restoring an older chimney, relining an existing chimney, who’s doing the work, etc. It might help us give you better information rather than guessing what you’re doing.

Lots of chimney’s are 8”x12”, but they are far less common these days in new construction and for good reason, they just don’t draft well. It’s really any rectangle liner, not even taking into consideration an oversized rectangle liner. If at all possible I would avoid a rectangle liner of any size at all costs. Don’t let a salesman sell you something just because it’s he has it and it’s readily available to him. Like I said, square liners are most common today and even recommended. Clay liners are cheap too. I recently bought some 8”x8” square and they were $20 each. Try buying stainless and see what it costs. LOL! You could buy another stove nearly for what the stainless steel Class A chimney will cost you and even stainless steel liners are way more expensive than clay liners.

Give us more details and I’ll let some others chime in with their input.

 
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Post by zachary193 » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 5:11 am

This would be a complete new construction new stove installation.

 
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Post by zachary193 » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 5:12 am

Yes stainless is outrageous , 700 bucks just to get out of the wall ! Block is around 780


 
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Post by coalder » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 7:31 am

Built more chimneys than I care to remember. Go with 8X8 flue & 8" round thimble. You'll have better draft than an 8X12, the chimney will stay a tad warmer than a bigger flue & the chimney blocks are a little lighter. Although there is nothing light about a chimney block. Here in NY the blocks are required to be solid & are about 94# for the 8" flue blocks. Trust me you DON'T want to try to wrestle an 8X12 chimney block up on a scaffold!!!!! Hence the reason why so many "masons" try to steer prospective clients towards metal chimneys. Also, 8" flue & chimney block are as common as black flies in Spring. Don't let the lumber yard talk you into an 8X12 flue chimney unless they are offering the labor for free.
Jim

 
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Post by Rob R. » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 9:20 am

zachary193 wrote:
Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 12:24 am
I’m located in south western pa . The liners I can get that are readily available are 8x12 . The chimney will be on the outside of the home as well
8x8" or 8" round flue tile will be plenty for that stove. Insulate around the liner with vermiculite.

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 9:34 am

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 9:20 am
8x8" or 8" round flue tile will be plenty for that stove. Insulate around the liner with vermiculite.
Why vermiculite?

 
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Post by Rob R. » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 9:57 am

waytomany?s wrote:
Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 9:34 am
Why vermiculite?
It is commonly used to fill the void between the clay liner and the block to reduce heat loss. Not necessary on an interior chimney, but for an outside chimney I would do all I could to maximize draft and reduce the potential for creosote.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 12:11 pm

Let me offer something for thought and maybe some others can chime in with their thoughts as well.

Clay liners can be insulated with more than one type of insulation and ...
- Vermiculite
- Perlite
...are but two insulators that can be used to insulate your clay liner. There may be more.

NOTE:
Either of these can cause a mess if you ever have to replace a liner down the road, BUT they're also cheap and easy to use to reinsulate the new liner as well. Trade-offs to everything in life.



Those same two products are used in the Ag business (commercial greenhouse growing business) in planting mixes for plants.

-Perlite:
Is added to a growing medium, or growing mixture, that young flower and veggie plants grow in. The Perlite is porous and is used to help keep the soil mixture loose and airy and to help the soil drain faster because it does NOT hold water. It has microscopic holes throughout its structure. It will hold a minimal amount of water but only for a brief time. That is, if the soil is allowed to dry out perlite will dry much quicker than vermiculite. Much quicker.

-Vermiculite:
Although once used in home attic insulation and now not used as much anymore for that purpose, if at all, because it contains ASBESTOS which is harmful to the lungs, it is still used in the Ag business to help hold moisture in soil mixtures to help keep plants from drying out. Specifically it is used to completely cover some seed starting flats to maintain optimum moisture levels of certain seeds that are hard to germinate. The vermiculite helps create the optimum climate for germinating certain seed varieties by helping maintain moisture levels. It helps keep soil very moist and even wet. I'm speaking from my experience in the greenhouse growing industry. You put too much vermiculite on the wrong plants or seeds and they will die from a disease called "damping off" because of too much moisture being held in the soil and not draining properly or fast enough.

Armed with the above Ag information it is easy to see what my point is with regard to using these products to insulate chimney liners; that vermiculite is actually a poor choice for chimney insulating purposes or any insulating purposes, in my opinion and for the reasons stated above. It simply attracts and holds far too much moisture. As it gets moist it will eventually dry out under the right conditions, however, as it does this it also settles. Perlite will also settle initially, but far less and it will stop settling.

Yes, vermiculite is commonly used to insulate chimney, but in my view is a sub-standard product for that purpose. I'm pretty sure that @Pauliewog has used Perlite to insulate the clay lined chimney's he has built. Maybe he can comment on how they have performed.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 12:21 pm

coalder wrote:
Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 7:31 am
Built more chimneys than I care to remember. Go with 8X8 flue & 8" round thimble. You'll have better draft than an 8X12, the chimney will stay a tad warmer than a bigger flue & the chimney blocks are a little lighter. Although there is nothing light about a chimney block. Here in NY the blocks are required to be solid & are about 94# for the 8" flue blocks. Trust me you DON'T want to try to wrestle an 8X12 chimney block up on a scaffold!!!!! Hence the reason why so many "masons" try to steer prospective clients towards metal chimneys. Also, 8" flue & chimney block are as common as black flies in Spring. Don't let the lumber yard talk you into an 8X12 flue chimney unless they are offering the labor for free.
Jim
Good post Jim.

Question...
From your own perspective and use as a former mason, if you were building a new chimney would you ever consider a stainless steel liner or Class A chimney...and would such a choice be dependent on using one or the other fuel type?

Just curious...because you're right. Seems a lot of older masons are telling people to use SS these days and perhaps that's because they assume most people burn wood, or because even most of the older masons left today never seen much coal burned as its use was gone mostly from most areas of the country by they time they started as masons. I assume you're in your 70's like my dad...who growing up in SW Ohio coal use had been gone for quite some time. Now, my grandfathers and my FIL all in their 90's remembered using coal as kids here...even into their teens, but after that coal mostly left this SW Ohio country and as its families turned more to wood stoves a fuel oil burners.

Myself, I wouldn't hesitate to use a double wall stainless chimney for wood only, but I still prefer masonry and masonry lined chimneys for my own reasons. One of those reasons, clay heats up and holds heat. Metal, insulated or not won't hold onto heat in cold temps like stone or clay will.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 12:25 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 9:57 am
It is commonly used to fill the void between the clay liner and the block to reduce heat loss. Not necessary on an interior chimney, but for an outside chimney I would do all I could to maximize draft and reduce the potential for creosote.
Also a good post.

In general to anyone reading this...
As long as a masonry chimney is kept dry and tight, well inspected and maintained, then vermiculite could still be a good choice for insulating a chimney provided it is kept dry. Kept dry, it may indeed be a better insulator than the Perlite. It would be interesting to see some scientific evidence of this...and the fact that Vermiculite is/was used in home attic insulation mixes might be one sign that it could be a better insulator. I'm not sure. Anyone have any specific data in that regard?

Wasn't trying to say that Rob's comments were wrong, I was just adding some additional information to consider in the decision making process.

 
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Post by warminmn » Wed. Jun. 22, 2022 2:14 pm

Not all vermiculite has asbestos.

My Dads chimney (new that year when an addition was built) was first outside block and it cracked beyond use the 1st winter. Reason, it was a bad spot for a chimney with trees around and a tall roof near it so draft was not the best. Couple that with an old wood stove that was a smoke dragon and it caused so much condensation it froze, cracked, broke. MN winter doesnt help.

I replaced that with stainless chimney and other than having to brush it every 2 weeks it is fine with wood. Cant burn ant in it as not enough draft. Wrong location and yes the chimney has been raised as high as it can go. Im not going down that road again as wood works fine there.

So yes, there are places SS can be better. If it were an indoor chimney I'd have a better outcome with the block.

Ease of installation can be another reason to use SS.


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