Hitzer 354: Burning from one grate

 
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McGiever
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Post by McGiever » Fri. Dec. 03, 2021 8:35 am

Good that Dean pointed you in this direction, Bill


 
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Post by Hoytman » Fri. Dec. 03, 2021 9:42 am

Lightning wrote:
Wed. Dec. 01, 2021 7:57 pm
Have you ever had a draft failure? Personally I don't think it's very likely with an interior chimney. But extenuating circumstances could cause one. A powered vent or somebody opening a window upstairs on the downstream side of wind hitting the house.
No, I sure haven't. Had two kitchen windows open 6" each on opposing walls, and the bathroom window open as well trying to expel some heat last night. I kept watching the manometer, even pulled it and checked it again, and it was riding right at -.015"WC until it quit raining and the temp started to drop from 61F to 32F by 7am.

Even in the wind I've never had a total reversal. I've had the wind sink it to the end of the red numbers, but it always goes back when I am watching the manometer. When wind is that strong I usually open the stove damper about an inch if it's warmer, closed when below 25, and also close the pipe damper 45 degrees or even 90 degrees depending on wind strength and temperature.



I want to clarify something I said earlier in response to Oliver Power when I said I might add some spinners to the 254. When I wrote that I should have clarified that I was thinking solely of "if I ever wanted to burn wood in that stove".

I still feel and believe that some of the under fire air in these stoves by-passes the grates and comes up between the grate frame and the steel walls of the stove becoming over fire, or secondary air...which is why Dean says secondary air isn't really needed for anthracite in these stoves. I hope I haven't misrepresented what he said here and I apologize if I have. I don't mean to speak for him, rather just trying to share what I understood him to say.

In a wood stove, most that I have seen, the bricks fit right on the floor of the stove and nearly tight up against the steel walls of the stove. Where any movement might be in the bricks ash will soon clog that up and they will become tight. I have two wood stoves in the garage I am likely going to have to bust a few bricks to get the rest of them out.

In these Hitzers, the grate frame and brick retainer has to have some play in their sizing in order to be able to get them in and out of the stove. This slight oversizing allows just a tad more gap between the bricks and the walls of the stove than in most wood stoves, just enough for some of the under fire air to escape up through and over the fire acting as secondary air. I have witnessed this with my door spinners fully closed. When I've really ramped my stove up hard at tending I have seen blue "ghost flames" in-between these areas, the sides, the back, and in the front between the firebrick and the front steel of the stove body. It's actually quite the show. Normally I don't ramp the stove up nearly that much, so then I would not see it normally.
Last edited by Hoytman on Fri. Dec. 03, 2021 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Fri. Dec. 03, 2021 9:45 am

McGiever wrote:
Fri. Dec. 03, 2021 8:35 am
Good that Dean pointed you in this direction, Bill
Seems to be working out that way. :yes:

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Fri. Dec. 03, 2021 12:52 pm

Hoytman wrote:
Thu. Dec. 02, 2021 4:40 pm
I’ll take warm weather any time. If I’m not burning coal...then I’m not burning money.
Burning $ is way less economical than burning just About anything. :D

 
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Post by Hoytman » Mon. Dec. 06, 2021 11:15 pm

I’ve had this hunch about my draft running higher on one grate. Part of that is all the air is coming under one grate versus two making my draft slightly higher.

The other part of that hunch from the get go is the new ash pan gasket seemed to allow the door to shut less tight than the first new gasket I put in. That one I really had to push to shut the door. I stretched this gasket just a tad when dampening it with a paper towel which I didn’t do with the first replacement gasket.

Today we had 47F OAT and a good steady wind here in the Shady Hollow. Manometer was reading -.03”WC when I got up early this morning. Not to bad. Still could be the burning from a single grate with a lot more air thing going on.

At 1pm and again at 5pm my draft was a steady -.04”WC. At 5pm draft was the same but the wind had died down quite a bit with OAT’s falling about 33F at 5pm.

At 11pm (now) it is 26F and my draft is not bad and a little lower than earlier at -.03”WC. It had been drafting at these same temps at -.02”WC. It’s not far off, so I’m not worried. Still thinking the gasket is ok, but not quite as tight as the old one. I think I will dollar bill test it tomorrow just for peace-of-mind. Just to eliminate any chance that the gasket is sealing even slightly less than I think it should be. I never did that when I replaced them either time. Never felt a need to being the gaskets were supposed to be proper size...and they are proper size.

I guess weather patterns, barometric pressure, could vary the draft that little bit. Just wanting to be careful. Would rather catch a gasket issue before it becomes a real issue, but I think we’re still good to go. I still think it’s drafting slightly more just because all the air is going under one grate.

Hitzer says draft should be -.03”WC to -.06”WC, so I know I’m not over drafting. Not even close. If anything I’m running lower obviously, but she likes to ride there it seems so we let it.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. Dec. 07, 2021 9:12 pm

Okay here’s an update.

Was sort of windy yesterday and the low last night was 19F by early evening. My draft was running -.04” so a bit higher than normal but well within Hitzer parameters.

Woke to 68F IAT and we shook and loaded about 6am.

By noon today the house had dropped to 66F with a dial setting of 2.5 on the dial. I decided to bump it up some to about 2.75 not quite 3 on the dial.

By 5 pm nothing had changed except the fire had seemed to die out quite a bit, so I bumped the dial to 3. Probably should have did that to begin with. I decided to shake again thinking that with the higher draft I was going through the coal just a tad quicker than before. Ya’ think! LOL! The right side was ashing up pretty good also. I poked down along the front bricks on two occasions and it didn’t seem to help so I knew it was ashing up in me real good. Tomorrow I plan to bend me up a rod to poke down along the bricks on each side and along the front.

By 7pm the IAT was 66F in the house. Keep in mind I am burning off of one grate. I modified my stove with bricks in the front that normally are cut below the door lip not allowing much coal to be loaded in the front. Mine are full size bricks that I left uncut and placed along the front door. This allowed for more coal up front, about 4.5” worth of coal, not much, and the rest banked up to the top of the brick retainer in the back and mounded slightly above the brick retainer.

With my draft at -.04”WC that means I was burning the coal faster and ashing up faster also. Faster ashing with only 4.5” of coal up front just threw my last two weeks rhythm completely off. LOL!

Low this evening is supposed to be around 24F, dusting of snow predicted by morning, and cool all week until Friday...and that is liable to change before it gets here. So, time to hook up the rear grate and warm this place back up. Took all of three minutes. I have to admit though...I’m thinking I should have kept burning on one grate just so I know how it will run. The reason I didn’t is it’s going to mean more tending and burning hotter up front.

Hooking up the rear grate gave me a chance to shake again and to clear some of the rear ash that had built up. Gave it a gentle shake, just enough to see a little bit of orange light up the back portion of the ash pan and then I stopped. She was rolling then. The entire bed of coal turned to 6” blue flames. I have let those burn out and now there’s a dull red glow in the front half of the stove. Thermostat flap is closed and I have NOT moved the dial, and I won’t until the thermostat cycles at least once. I want to see how much the room temp comes up after the flap opens and closed again.

Something I think is important to note, but haven’t yet quite figured out yet, is: When is the best time to make a dial adjustment?

I know some are going to shake their head at this thought and say “just make it whenever”. That may be ok, but I’ve noticed there is a difference and I think there is a right time to make an adjustment and a wrong time. Track with me a moment. There is a lag time by design of the no-metal spring. I will stop there. Let’s see if anyone else can explain this better than me. I think I’m going to ha r a hard time explaining it. Perhaps because I don’t fully understand it. In the mean time...

...still waiting on the stat to open and then close before checking room temp and deciding whether to move the dial again. Still 68F in here. Shooting for 72-74. I think we still ha e some ash on the back grates and along the bricks. Can’t do anything about that until tomorrow when I bend me up a poking rod.

Waiting on the flapper to cycle and we’ll be back in here with details...

 
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Post by warminmn » Tue. Dec. 07, 2021 10:15 pm

If your cold turn it up. Too warm turn it down. It will work fine both ways. Its going to take a while to settle in after adding a grate of coal, hooking up the other grate. Dont be too quick about changing the dial. Wait a while. Its not wood.

Your magnet thermometer, it doesnt matter if that temp is correct, but learn what temp it says and where you have the temp knob set cuz its going to be close most the time. Your messing with it too much now.

My grates are about the same size as yours and its not an issue for me burning 40 pounds +/- on one grate a day, Im doing that now. Its running just under 400 degrees all day and night. It will burn more than that in colder weather, its about 10 degrees now, but I usually just light my Chubby then too. It depends on the wind direction and how many days its going to be sub zero if I light the Chubby or just turn my main stove up more.


 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. Dec. 07, 2021 10:42 pm

warminmn wrote:
Tue. Dec. 07, 2021 10:15 pm
If your cold turn it up. Too warm turn it down. It will work fine both ways. Its going to take a while to settle in after adding a grate of coal, hooking up the other grate. Dont be too quick about changing the dial. Wait a while. Its not wood.

Your magnet thermometer, it doesnt matter if that temp is correct, but learn what temp it says and where you have the temp knob set cuz its going to be close most the time. Your messing with it too much now.

My grates are about the same size as yours and its not an issue for me burning 40 pounds +/- on one grate a day, Im doing that now. Its running just under 400 degrees all day and night. It will burn more than that in colder weather, its about 10 degrees now, but I usually just light my Chubby then too. It depends on the wind direction and how many days its going to be sub zero if I light the Chubby or just turn my main stove up more.
Only thing I did through the day was barely bump the stat...Yep...I always forget how slow it is to respond...and hooked up the rear grate. Maybe the long explanation makes it seem like I’m messing with it too much. Maybe I am. Haven’t touched it for 2-3 weeks though other than shaking and adding.

I’ve mentioned an issue I thought I’ve had with this stat here before and this evening I noticed it again. Let me try to explain it again.

Stat set at 2.5 last 3 weeks. Got cold last night. Never touched it. Obviously it’s going to sense a low temp and then open the flap. Should open that flap at that same low temp every time. Should. There lies the problem and this has happened before.

Without touching anything the stove temp drops like a rock. When I originally set the stat I went to 0 them back to 2.5 and there it stayed for 2-3 weeks. All of a sudden outside temps drop like a rock to 19 and so stove temps drop far below where the stat had been opening. What did I do. I waited and waited. Nothing. Stove had been glowing nice orange before while stat was open and when it closed it didn’t re-open when it had been. I waited and waited. Nothing. So, to prove to myself I wasn’t crazy I bumped that stat to 2.75 and waited. Nothing in a half an hour. Bumped it to 3. Still didn’t open and stove was well below its low running temp when it was set in 2.5. It took bumping to about 3.25 on the dial...for lack of explanation it was between 3 and 3.5 on the dial. Finally, as soon as I moved it passed 3 it finally decided to open the flap, but oddly enough it was short lived.

Now I know I’m not crazy because I’ve had this happen two years in a row and now three. It seems that at random this stat gets a mind if its own. Like something is changing or slipping in the unit. It’s weird for sure. I’ll have the issue for a day or two, turn the dial to zero the back to my setting. May take once or twice and then it acts fine again. It’s hard to explain what is happening, but something IS happening.

Both grates active...stat set at 3.25 from a return to zero. Room is up to 69 since about 8:30.

 
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Post by warminmn » Wed. Dec. 08, 2021 8:33 am

You might need a new spring in the thermo. Im sure Dean can set you up with that. Thats if they are easily switched, something I dont know. I remember you did something with the magnet a while back or last year and am unsure if it could be related to that.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Wed. Dec. 08, 2021 9:17 am

I decided to leave that magnet alone last year. Haven't touched it, ever.

Went to bed at 69F, did bump the stat dial again before bed to 3.5. I figured if I needed to turn in down in the morning I could. Not a big deal.

House at 71F this morning. I am almost sure that the back grates are not yet clear of ash yet from burning on one grate. I did a very gentle shake this morning, just enough to see a faint glow underneath. Didn't add anything this morning because it didn't seem to need it yet, but I will at lunch maybe. I may wait until this evening as well and if so that would make a 24hr burn on both grates.

I no doubt could have burned hotter on one grate. In fact, in trying to keep up with it the temp above the doors was 375F which is my hottest temp ever taken there. I am sure I could have went on up to 500-600 on that temp, but with the fuel load on that grate only being about 5" deep, plus we're getting into the normal cold period of winter, I decided to hook up the other grate, Besides, if I hadn't hooked the rear grate up and decided to burn one grate much hotter, I would have to constantly tend it and add fuel up front.

I need to get that ash clearing rod bent up today.

 
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Post by warminmn » Wed. Dec. 08, 2021 10:00 am

OK. 5" is much shallower than my 9ish inches. That is not optimal. My 1st stove was around 5" and I added a real heavy piece of steel in front by the window to raise it an inch or 2 (I forget exactly) and that helped a lot. But you've added height already I think.

For how cheap those springs are from Hitzer, if its an easy switch, it might be worth a try.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Wed. Dec. 08, 2021 11:17 am

Are you talking about the bi-metallic spring or the spring on the dial knob? I'm wondering if the dial knob is slipping or if it has some play in it. There's a spring between the box and the dial knob. Bi-metallic spring is hidden inside the box.

 
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Post by warminmn » Wed. Dec. 08, 2021 11:47 am

The spring that controls the door that goes up and down on your air intake, the bi-metalic. That because it isnt opening at the same stove temp some of the time. It is listed at $9.50 under parts for the 354 on their website, if its the same as your older model.

The can wear out or if the stove was overheated they might not work right.

 
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Post by Hounds51 » Wed. Dec. 08, 2021 12:58 pm

If only my TLC had the bimetal draft control, I would be very happy.
I guess I could engineer one for my stove I guess I have to look into making that work.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Dec. 09, 2021 1:01 pm

It sure is strange that with OAT at 43F that my draft is double what it was last year at -.04”WC...and it’s not really cold out.

Stove damper full closed, spinners open 1/4 turn...stove settling down after tending and flap closed. It may drop back to -.03”WC...maybe.

Full disclosure...I still have some volatiles burning off and have some lazy 3” blue ladies across the entire bed, so I suspect that likely has something to do with it too.

Yes, that is within Hitzer’s recommended burn rate of -.04” to -.06”, so I am still in good shape.

Just seems odd. Like either my manometer is either off or that ash pan door gasket I mentioned has something to do with it. The last two years the door seemed to close tighter. I guess I should dollar bill test it.


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