Hitzer 254

Hoytman · Post by **Hoytman** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 1:34 pm

hcarlow wrote: ↑
Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 10:50 am
On the section ( Does anyone have the Hitzer 254 ) first page at the bottom Dean mentions via Oliver the knob at the front top center is a dummy knob on the non fan model . I would assume that would be for the internal damper if it had one .

Correct!!

Just spoke to Dean at Hitzer and to be sure, both 254/354 radiant models do not have an internal damper like I had assumed. So my assumption was incorrect. He did tell me that if a person wanted to, they could put the damper through the side of the stove, but he said it's just as easy or even more easy to simply put the damper in the pipe. I agree, if a radiant model would be your choice. This would make it similar to a Lopi Endeavor/Liberty wood stove by-pass. Not the same, but similar. It would also make it similar to the DS Comfortmax. Again, similar, yet different.

I can tell you this...
My 354 is run low a lot. At 300F or below there is still good convection coming out of the top of the unit, but not as much as one thinks. It cannot be felt near the floor standing 3 ft away because most of it is rising because it is moving so slow. However, turn the blower on low and 3 ft in front of the stove it will warm your feet.

Also, it doesn't put off much radiant heat below 275F. It is not until I run it around 325F that I can feel the radiance coming through the back of my easy chair 8ft away. Still at that temp you can just start to feel convective heat coming from the convection chamber. Obviously, the hotter the stove runs, the more of each type of heat you will feel. I have never had my stove set to run higher than 350F in my ranch 1350 Sq ft. Even though I think the 254 would fit this home better, I am afraid a radiant model would still cook us out of the house.

I do not use the blower at all. I have turned it on in below freezing weather just to see if it makes a difference. The obvious answer is; yes. I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Side note, unless you'd run it 375F+ do not be mislead thinking you could cook off of it in a pinch. At 375F you are just barely able to start cooking off it I would think, and 400F+ would be better. Even running my 354 at 350F it will not even come close to boiling water. All the heat is coming off the sides, the front and through the convection chamber. If cooking is a must, you want the radiant.

Would probably be best if we could see a picture of where the stove will go, but with that I'm going to assume that with the fan turned off you'll still get plenty of radiant heat from the stove. After all, cold air pushes hot air upward, so any cool air falling down the stairs is going to have a pulling effect of warmer air into the upstairs, and there will likely be plenty of pull. I hope your basement is insulated, otherwise you're wasting your time. All that concrete will absorb most of your heat.

If that stove must be placed under or to the side and facing away, then I would still want that blower model moving the heat for me. Too much radiance near the stairwell could be a fire hazard waiting to happen over the long haul.

Hoytman · Post by **Hoytman** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 1:41 pm

hcarlow wrote: ↑
Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 1:10 pm
I just talked with Dean and the radiant model 254 does not have an internal damper as there is no place to put one due to the different design of the stove pipe connection . He mentioned you could put one in the stove pipe itself .

Looks like I should have finished reading the thread before my last post. Looks like we were thinking the same thing and only about 25 minutes apart.

Dean is probably thinking, "what is up with the 254 radiant questions today".

Dean and family are good people!

coalder · Post by **coalder** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 4:38 pm

Bill, according to Hitzer brochure under features & according to Oliver Power the stove does apparently have a built in baffle & damper?????????
Jim

Hoytman · Post by **Hoytman** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 7:16 pm

I have not found the brochures to be too descriptive and are lacking in information between radiant and blower models, the same for their website.

The blower models have both a baffle and a built in damper.

Radiant models also have a baffle, but not a damper.

The removable steel baffle is designed to deflect heat to the front of the stove. It also caused a rolling action of the air inside the firebox just as some slanted baffles in wood stoves do that have secondary air tubes in them.

Sort of weird how their “features” section in their website lists most features of the blower model, but does tell you if the “features” section is describing a blower model or a radiant model. In fact, just looking at the website quickly I did not even see mention of a radiant model. Just like the double door option for the 354 is not mentioned, yet Dean has repeatedly told me the 354 is still available with double doors.

Also, the blower is mentioned in the “optional features”.

Also note there is no mention, for either model, of a false top inside the stove (blower model) that contains any heat exchanger, yet Dean told me today the blower model indeed does have a false top inside and a heat exchanger above that false top.

On my 354, even with the blower turned on, I had to look very closely at the stove with a flashlight in a well lit room just to find where the convection air is coming from...between the top of the stove and the false top or the plate the heat exchanger sits on.

In radiant models you still have to look very closely at the stove to see there is no convection chamber outlet. I assumed earlier in this thread the radiant models still had a false top, heat exchanger, a damper, and could still naturally convection air, and I assumed a heat shield came on the back of the stoves, but I was wrong in all cases.

In other words, if you removed the top from radiant models you could see all the way into the stove and see the grates. This is not the case in blower models. If you removed the top in a blower model you would see a heat exchanger and a plate that it is resting on, the false top...and under that false top is where the damper plate guides/track is welded that allows the damper to slide back and forth.

I think I have a picture of this baffle, false top, and the guides the dampernolate rides in and the damper plate. Be right back...

Hoytman · Post by **Hoytman** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 7:25 pm

You can’t even see the air outlet in this photo below and I don’t have a better picture at the moment, but the convection air comes out between the top lip of the stove and the gold trim piece.

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The next two pictures clearly show the baffle, the false top and the rails the damper plate rides on. Above that false top is the heat exchanger.

.JPEG | 753.3KB | 7FE0C956-78F7-46AE-B38F-61F33C8E3C6E.jpeg

.JPEG | 665.6KB | 9B6D9A67-7FA1-453D-8A03-38B7C8A83A07.jpeg

.JPEG | 822.4KB | C229ACC9-B699-4A31-9AFC-0248385FF87A.jpeg

hcarlow · Post by **hcarlow** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 8:44 pm

Thanks Hoytman for all that information , my cellar stays around 60 f. with just the radiant heat coming off the LL boiler and my oil boiler it is hooked too . I have foam insulation on the outside of the concrete foundation . I will not be giving up the use of the LL boiler unless absolutely necessary . I want a back up plan in case of a long term power outage . I just want a way to keep my house from freezing up and to stay somewhat warm if it ever comes to that . I do have have a generator for those outages we have quite often here now . I have been considering the 55 hitzer and as of late the 254 . I thought about the cooking but had no idea how that would work out on either stove . I do have a large woodlot so I want a stove that can burn wood , but plan on coal only . It will be spring before I can get a place ready for the coal and stove to be delivered so I have time to make a decision . I am thinking of a backup stove with no electricity , that is why I mentioned I would probably never use the fan model . That being said , I wouldn't mind buying the fan model if it is a better stove for my use . The stove will be far enough away from any combustibles with either model . Thanks Again for all the great info

oliver power · Post by **oliver power** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 8:50 pm

Hoytman wrote: ↑
Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 1:34 pm
Correct!!

Just spoke to Dean at Hitzer and to be sure, both 254/354 radiant models do not have an internal damper like I had assumed. So my assumption was incorrect. He did tell me that if a person wanted to, they could put the damper through the side of the stove, but he said it's just as easy or even more easy to simply put the damper in the pipe. I agree, if a radiant model would be your choice. This would make it similar to a Lopi Endeavor/Liberty wood stove by-pass. Not the same, but similar. It would also make it similar to the DS Comfortmax. Again, similar, yet different.

I can tell you this...
My 354 is run low a lot. At 300F or below there is still good convection coming out of the top of the unit, but not as much as one thinks. It cannot be felt near the floor standing 3 ft away because most of it is rising because it is moving so slow. However, turn the blower on low and 3 ft in front of the stove it will warm your feet.

Also, it doesn't put off much radiant heat below 275F. It is not until I run it around 325F that I can feel the radiance coming through the back of my easy chair 8ft away. Still at that temp you can just start to feel convective heat coming from the convection chamber. Obviously, the hotter the stove runs, the more of each type of heat you will feel. I have never had my stove set to run higher than 350F in my ranch 1350 Sq ft. Even though I think the 254 would fit this home better, I am afraid a radiant model would still cook us out of the house.

I do not use the blower at all. I have turned it on in below freezing weather just to see if it makes a difference. The obvious answer is; yes. I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Side note, unless you'd run it 375F+ do not be mislead thinking you could cook off of it in a pinch. At 375F you are just barely able to start cooking off it I would think, and 400F+ would be better. Even running my 354 at 350F it will not even come close to boiling water. All the heat is coming off the sides, the front and through the convection chamber. If cooking is a must, you want the radiant.

Would probably be best if we could see a picture of where the stove will go, but with that I'm going to assume that with the fan turned off you'll still get plenty of radiant heat from the stove. After all, cold air pushes hot air upward, so any cool air falling down the stairs is going to have a pulling effect of warmer air into the upstairs, and there will likely be plenty of pull. I hope your basement is insulated, otherwise you're wasting your time. All that concrete will absorb most of your heat.

If that stove must be placed under or to the side and facing away, then I would still want that blower model moving the heat for me. Too much radiance near the stairwell could be a fire hazard waiting to happen over the long haul.

Again , I agree with everything Hoytman. Had the same thoughts on the cooking, but did not want to take the time to type it out. I had to get moving.

oliver power · Post by **oliver power** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:04 pm

I have to say Hoytman; For someone fairly new to burning coal, you sure do have a good understanding of your 354 (& 254). You've been paying attention, with good observation.

Hoytman · Post by **Hoytman** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:20 pm

Just remember the 254 will heat a slightly larger area than the 55 if my memory serves me correctly.

I am not certain if the 55 is radiant only or not. Either of the above would be worth discussing your situation with Dean.

I do think if cooking was really a consideration the 55 would give you a larger area to cook off of. I am impressed with that little stove as well.

Having foam, even if only 2 inches, on the outside of your foundation will go a long way in helping to heat the entire home.

Me, I’m the type of person who likes to weigh every variable. I like to plan for the future when making these sort of choices. You’ll likely only see about a $200 increase for hand feds to hopper models and possibly even a blower model.

As Oliver said earlier, you’ll also see an increase in resale should you ever sell the stove ... most certainly if the blower is near new or never used when you decide to sell it. There again, you won’t know what works, having the blower on or not, unless you get it with the blower. Some of that reflective foam foil can help guide any radiance towards other areas. Something else to consider.

It’s pert near the same fire box entirely, so any radiance that would come off the top or back of the stove, that additional radiance in the blower model should come from the front and sides and some via convection. I would think you will find that the more air you have moving in the basement, the better it will heat everything, down and upstairs.

You get that blower stove...get that puppy at 400F-600F that baby will radiate some heat. I think you can take that one too the bank. I’ve forgotten now how many sq ft you said you would be heating, but if in doubt step up to a 354 blower model if the entire place is bigger than 2000 sq ft. I know that will heat it for you.

Hoytman · Post by **Hoytman** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:27 pm

oliver power wrote: ↑
Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:04 pm
I have to say Hoytman; For someone fairly new to burning coal, you sure do have a good understanding of your 354 (& 254). You've been paying attention, with good observation.

I really appreciate that. I do try my best to pay attention to a lot of the regulars like yourself. It helps when you’re interested in something and it really helps when you have a great group of forum members, of which there are many, to learn from. I have tremendous respect for everyone here that are regular contributors and just plain old guys who love coal stoves. Y’all know who you are. I was a lurker for probably more than 3 years. Finally, I joined the forum. One of the best things I’ve ever done. So glad to have met some of these guys and look forward to meeting more at forum get-togethers.

oliver power · Post by **oliver power** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:32 pm

Hoytman wrote: ↑
Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:20 pm
Just remember the 254 will heat a slightly larger area than the 55 if my memory serves me correctly.

I am not certain if the 55 is radiant only or not. Either of the above would be worth discussing your situation with Dean.

I do think if cooking was really a consideration the 55 would give you a larger area to cook off of. I am impressed with that little stove as well.

Having foam, even if only 2 inches, on the outside of your foundation will go a long way in helping to heat the entire home.

Me, I’m the type of person who likes to weigh every variable. I like to plan for the future when making these sort of choices. You’ll likely only see about a $200 increase for a blower model, and as Oliver said earlier, an increase in resale should you ever sell the stove ... most certainly in f the blower is near new or never used when you decide to sell it. There again, you won’t know what works, having the blower on or not, unless you get it with the blower.

It’s the same fire box entirely. So any radiance that would come off the top or back of the stove, that additional radiance should come from the front and sides and some via convection. I would think you will find that the more air you have moving in the basement, the better it will heat everything, down and upstairs.

You get that blower stove...get that puppy at 400F-600F that baby will radiate some heat. I think you can take that one too the bank. I’ve forgotten now how many sq ft you said you would be heating, but if in doubt step up to a 354 blower model if the entire place is bigger than 2000 sq ft. I know that will heat it for you.

A little buffer is nice. I'd step up to the 354 if I were heating more than 1600 - 1800 square feet.

Hoytman · Post by **Hoytman** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:35 pm

I totally agree with that, Oliver, if his home fits that range or larger, and especially trying to heat from a basement. The larger stove might better compensate for the lack of additional foam insulation of concrete walls.

I know for certain then he will likely run the stove at 325F+ and likely much higher, which eliminates the issues Inhave with idling in milder weather, yet allows enough cushion that he’ll never have to push the stove hard, which to me is also a plus. Why? I have noticed that the lower temp I run my stove the coal seems to burn down to much finer ash. Anything less than 300F and I have issues keeping the coal bed lit fully and issued ramping the stove, if that is what I desire. It simply takes too long to ramp sometimes burning that low and trying to tend the stove.

EDIT:
Keep in mind the above suggestions may not fit the OP’s scenario.

warminmn · Post by **warminmn** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:50 pm

Hoytman, Next time your at the Hitzer shop take a look at the 55 and have Dean or someone explain to you the door in front of the exhaust outlet, and what it makes the heat do. Its much different than the larger model. Its so simple and yet works so good. Some here leave that door open (they may not have a choice and have too) but they are losing out on a fair amount of efficiency.

My Dad uses that door with wood (he rarely burns anymore as he is quite old) and that winter that propane was $5/gallon I took him a pickup load of oak and it lasted him the whole month of Feb in this iceberg state. He keeps his house at least 75. His house is large. I was very impressed.

Hoytman · Post by **Hoytman** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 10:03 pm

warminmn wrote: ↑
Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 9:50 pm
Hoytman, Next time your at the Hitzer shop take a look at the 55 and have Dean or someone explain to you the door in front of the exhaust outlet, and what it makes the heat do. Its much different than the larger model. Its so simple and yet works so good. Some here leave that door open (they may not have a choice and have too) but they are losing out on a fair amount of efficiency.

My Dad uses that door with wood (he rarely burns anymore as he is quite old) and that winter that propane was $5/gallon I took him a pickup load of oak and it lasted him the whole month of Feb in this iceberg state. He keeps his house at least 75. His house is large. I was very impressed.

I certainly plan to check them out better.

By “larger model” do you mean the 82?

I actually have a 55/82 brochure in my lap while typing. Once again I find the information lacking to explain any differences between the two units. I know there are some differences because I remember seeing members here talk about them, but I don’t recall what those differences are.

You aren’t referring to a restrictor plate are you? I don’t think so. Maybe it is something that causes the heat to recirculate inside the stove?

warminmn · Post by **warminmn** » Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 10:47 pm

Hoytman wrote: ↑
Tue. Mar. 16, 2021 10:03 pm
I certainly plan to check them out better.

By “larger model” do you mean the 82?

I actually have a 55/82 brochure in my lap while typing. Once again I find the information lacking to explain any differences between the two units. I know there are some differences because I remember seeing members here talk about them, but I don’t recall what those differences are.

You aren’t referring to a restrictor plate are you? I don’t think so. Maybe it is something that causes the heat to recirculate inside the stove?

Yes, the 82. The 82 when you close the lever makes the heat recirculate inside the stove and then the gasses get burned on the way out but the 55 makes it travel down the sides of the stove where it can heat up the steel. (A short explanation) I was not speaking of the restrictor plate but understand any confusion.

I cant tell you what subject it was, but I put a video on it of my Riteway thru my little window of me opening and closing the lever. It makes no difference on the fires travels. It still goes up and then back down so the heat is in the stove longer with it closed. its basically the same system as the Hitzer 82. Im sure the video is on my computer still if I search. perhaps I'll also add it tomorrow to this post.

If you web search the Riteway or 82 (more so the Riteway as more wood burners used them) you might find mentions by posters of when you close the lever it shortens the fires path and they are incorrect. They assume the fire and heat goes in a straight line. And they assume other things. They should trust the designers more. Not a perfect system but they work.

The 55's are a different design, at least partially. Better in my opinion but I could easily be wrong.

I have to thank KingCoal for some of my understanding of my Riteway. He used one for many years.