Hitzer 254

 
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oliver power
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Post by oliver power » Tue. May. 11, 2021 2:51 pm

Again Hoytman, I think you're quite accurate with your observation/ explanation.


 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. May. 11, 2021 6:57 pm

Yeah, just about lost it again today. Tried to ramp it this morning but it was going out. I should have stuck with it. Came home at noon and my slight morning adjustment had done nothing.

So, while it was warm and drafting I opened the doors and took a shovel to the middle of the firebox and dug down to the grates, then threw in some hardwood lump and lit it with the torch. Went to drop the kids off at the pool (went to the bathroom...LOL) and by the time I was done, the door being cracked slightly, she was glowing red again. I then spread the wood coals out and the nut coal I had shovels along the sides I now placed back over top the wood coals to smother them and shut the doors. Made sure the draft was open all the way, and cracked open the ash pan door and in 5 minutes I had ripping blue flames. Been going good since. I turned the dial up this time instead of running so low, so that I could keep the coal lit and get rid of it all. Not sure yet if I will succeed in doing that or not. We’ll have to see.

Here about 8pm I’m going to rev her up again, and this time I’m going to take her up to 400+ and shut her down. No shaking this time. That should take care of what I have in the box. I hope. I’m thinking I have about 18 hours of coal left...about 6” worth in the box. Might surprise me though and burn for 30 hrs yet. I do have the damper open some too to waste some heat because I don’t need it all in the house. Have at least 3 windows open right now...open full.

Man...I believe in a modern well insulated home that is tight, this stove would easily heat 3000-4000sq ft and then some of you push it.

 
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Post by McGiever » Tue. May. 11, 2021 9:39 pm

Less grate area is less output, less draft requirements and less windows open.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. May. 11, 2021 10:22 pm

McGiever wrote:
Tue. May. 11, 2021 9:39 pm
Less grate area is less output, less draft requirements and less windows open.
Yep...you’re right, Larry. I’m seeing that now. Not that I didn’t understand that before. Both you and our good forum friend, Jack, has suggested the same....to shrink the grate area. Some things we just have to experience, right? I’ve got it now. So, now that I’m about to shut down and clean out I can work on an idea to shrink the grates area. That should help me a lot next year with this same stove. Only question then would be: How will the chimney function? I’m going to guess not much different since my heat load being called for wll not have changed any, so I’m hoping that will still be good.

Listen...I just got this thing ripping around 450 on the doors. First time I’ve really had it that high other than last years first start...first coal fire ever.

But hey...this coal that is left...well, there will be zero trouble seeing it all turn to ash now. Geez Louise...the entire coal bed was red with blue ladies all the way across and ghost flames. Yep, ghost flames! This 354 was ripping. Had the ash pan door open and the damper closed ha ha...and she took off. Normally I open the damper and let it build that way, but not this time. Kept all the heat in the stove and in the house.

I took some video of it all too. Just have to remember my YouTube passwords and such and I’ll post it up.

Guys, I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again...(I’m excited about this footage I got)

Maybe I am wrong...and I could be...but I have a hunch why Hitzer doesn’t use a reburn system in their stoves. It’s already built into the stove...without secondary air tubes. I also think I realize why Dean says secondary air isn’t necessary for anthracite...at least in “their” stoves. I’ll explain in a minute what I mean...what my best guess is.

She’s calming down now. For reference I have 385 just above the doors and 254 on the back of the stove just under the stat where Dean says is the best place to take a reference temperature for him to compare. Apparently taking the temp under the stat box is how they set up their stoves. So, when someone calls in for questions and he ask for temp readings from the caller, it’s best to have those readings from under the stat box as well as over the doors. I actually monitor those places as well as record side of stove readings and top of stove readings out of habit.

 
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Post by oliver power » Tue. May. 11, 2021 10:25 pm

So now we've come to the conclusion that the 254 / 354 need to be revved up to 0ver 300* when tending during milder temps. Sometimes it can take a while to get there if the stove is run down too far. This makes for a long tending period. During the colder months the same practice of revving the stove up applies. The difference is: the stove should already be at the target temps. If not, it won't take long to get there due to stronger winter drafts.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. May. 11, 2021 10:44 pm

What I think is happening in the 354...and actually I happen to believe this takes place in all hand fed and hopper fed Hitzer stoves.

If I can get these videos posted you will see what I call ghost flames, or secondary air flames igniting and this is happening in the video between the front of the bricks and grate frame...between there and the doors. You can clearly see that some primary air is slipping up between the doors and the front of the grate frame and front bricks...it’s getting pre-heated and then it ignites...and boy does it do some swirling.

I didn’t capture it this time, but this also happens between the skin of the stove and all the bricks...air will be sucked up past the fuel load and bricks...because of high draft...gets pre-heated...then it ignited in blue flames as would happen in modern wood stove with secondary air tubes. You get volatiles from the fuel load swirling in the firebox and when that primary air is sucked up past those places and becomes super heated it then ignites those volatiles which come in contact with the super heated air.

Guys I could be all washed up, but that is how it appears to be happening to me. I believe this is how Hitzer’s can get by burning bituminous coal as well...which needs more secondary air. The ability to provide that secondary air for a bituminous fuel load is what made Locke Stove company famous. Now I’m not comparing the Hitzer to the Locke, just pointing out that most Hitzer 254/354 are sold with a single door and without secondary air intakes on the stove...unlike my double door 354 which has air intakes in the doors.

Some of you guys say that the 30-95/50-93 stoves would benefit from secondary air intakes. I’ve even seen examples on this forum where I would also say that is true, but in one case just this year one of our forum members was having trouble with losing draft while running a 50-93 basically low and slow like I have to run my 354.

I forget which forum member it was (tan brick house...he put a liner in his chimney and fixed his draft...stove in basement and stove pipe at a bad angle to the chimney), but if my memory serves me he was running the stove below 350. Maybe had he been running hotter he would have had more air going through the stove instead of relying on the baro to help take hot air from the room to increase his draft. Of course, a liner helped him tremendously.

Well, in my stove I didn’t see the secondary flames in it until well over 400. My point being...the extra heat caused more draft which sucked more air through the firebox and past the fuel load via around the grate frame and between the stove sides and the fire bricks.

I believe if some ran the stove hotter, or had a smaller stove or grate area than their do, this burning a smaller grate area hotter people may realize there is plenty of secondary air already designed into the stoves.

I could be all washed up.

Let me try and post these videos on YouTube and then here and then you guys can pick it all apart.
Last edited by Hoytman on Tue. May. 11, 2021 11:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Tue. May. 11, 2021 10:56 pm

oliver power wrote:
Tue. May. 11, 2021 10:25 pm
So now we've come to the conclusion that the 254 / 354 need to be revved up to 0ver 300* when tending during milder temps. Sometimes it can take a while to get there if the stove is run down too far. This makes for a long tending period. During the colder months the same practice of revving the stove up applies. The difference is: the stove should already be at the target temps. If not, it won't take long to get there due to stronger winter drafts.
Yep...I am learning. All winter I did rev up to at least 300 and you are spot on about that target temp.

Often I take it to 350. However, the times I only go up to, or rev up to 300 I believe I am already at my target temperature for running, and often above my target temp since this stove is so big for my house, and that is why I can get away with loading coal, leaving a glowing red corner, NOT cracking air spinners, and allowing the stat to do its job (as Freetown Fred suggested). I can get by with this because often I am not loading much coal 10-20 lbs and rarely a hole hod or 30 lbs only in the coldest of weather.

Loading the smaller loads I don’t worry about explosions because I’ve sat in front of the stove enough to know that when it ignites that small fuel load it does so slowly with short small blue flames which subside quickly. Often (again as Freetown Fred once told me) “you don’t need blue flames”. I’ve witnessed this several times where I load coal, even a 30 lb load, leave some glowing red, let the stat do its job and as long as I rev the stove enough...to off-set the rush of colder air going in from loading...and when Inclose the doors at my target running temp...not one blue flame, just like Fred had told me last season.

Remember...I’m already near my target running temp so the stove is barely rev’d. It takes longer for the fresh coal to warm up and ignite. Sometimes it doesn’t ignite. That is important because the stove temp stays consistent as does the house temp and less heat from our flames going up the chimney or being pushed into the room. Therefore, the fuel load is lasting longer for me...which might explain the good numbers I was getting ... .8lbs/hr average for the season...not counting these last 8 days.

When I need more Reving of the stove and I load more fuel I do crack open each spinner 1/4 turn until it ignites. Dean says I don’t have to, but ifnI open those spinners I don’t get that sudden burst of blue flames. I’ve only heard the ignition one time...and that was a large load where I forgot to open the spinners.

Now, tonight with those ghost flames...I believe had I re-opened this spinner knobs with the stove so hot that the air going in would still have ignited in blue flames. I’ll have to try it next year to verify it though.


 
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Post by oliver power » Wed. May. 12, 2021 9:57 pm

Hoytman wrote:
Tue. May. 11, 2021 10:56 pm
Yep...I am learning. All winter I did rev up to at least 300 and you are spot on about that target temp.

Often I take it to 350. However, the times I only go up to, or rev up to 300 I believe I am already at my target temperature for running, and often above my target temp since this stove is so big for my house, and that is why I can get away with loading coal, leaving a glowing red corner, NOT cracking air spinners, and allowing the stat to do its job (as Freetown Fred suggested). I can get by with this because often I am not loading much coal 10-20 lbs and rarely a hole hod or 30 lbs only in the coldest of weather.

Loading the smaller loads I don’t worry about explosions because I’ve sat in front of the stove enough to know that when it ignites that small fuel load it does so slowly with short small blue flames which subside quickly. Often (again as Freetown Fred once told me) “you don’t need blue flames”. I’ve witnessed this several times where I load coal, even a 30 lb load, leave some glowing red, let the stat do its job and as long as I rev the stove enough...to off-set the rush of colder air going in from loading...and when Inclose the doors at my target running temp...not one blue flame, just like Fred had told me last season.

Remember...I’m already near my target running temp so the stove is barely rev’d. It takes longer for the fresh coal to warm up and ignite. Sometimes it doesn’t ignite. That is important because the stove temp stays consistent as does the house temp and less heat from our flames going up the chimney or being pushed into the room. Therefore, the fuel load is lasting longer for me...which might explain the good numbers I was getting ... .8lbs/hr average for the season...not counting these last 8 days.

When I need more Reving of the stove and I load more fuel I do crack open each spinner 1/4 turn until it ignites. Dean says I don’t have to, but ifnI open those spinners I don’t get that sudden burst of blue flames. I’ve only heard the ignition one time...and that was a large load where I forgot to open the spinners.

Now, tonight with those ghost flames...I believe had I re-opened this spinner knobs with the stove so hot that the air going in would still have ignited in blue flames. I’ll have to try it next year to verify it though.
You mentioned your target running temp. You need to rev up over 300*, even if target running temp is less. Then let it settle back down to target running temp. You are correct there as well. The understanding of these hopper-less stoves is a lot more involved, and more complex than a stove with an internal hopper. With the understanding you have for this stove, it'd be a walk in the park for you to run a stove with a hopper, where you would pretty much clear the ash, and keep the hopper filled.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. May. 13, 2021 8:14 am

That is what I do. Perhaps I didn’t make that clear.

The rest is comforting to know because that would make it easier and faster for the wife to run when I am not home. Although the boy does pretty good with this stove.

I was able to remember my YouTube passwords, but for the life of me couldn’t get the video to upload. Operated error. LOL! I couldn’t locate the place/buttons to try and upload it from this iPhone. I have a few videos up already of me working a young pup, but I did that from a computer. From this phone it seems different somehow. I’m not up with all this tech. LOL!

 
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Post by oliver power » Sun. May. 30, 2021 2:39 pm

Here are my findings / experiences with the 254 (354 is similar). I really like this 254. It impressed me a lot. I'm not fully happy with it's warm weather burns. The 30-95 has it beat by far on the low low burns during mild outside temps. So, My opinion; and quick summary of the 254.

The 254; although a great performer, and "very efficient", is primitive in operation. If you have time, understanding, and like to play with the coal stove, by all means, get the 254.

If you don't have the time, or interest in primitive operation, yet want simplicity and great performance of a coal stove, the the 30-95, and 50-93 are for you. I was always very happy with 30-95 & 50-93 efficiency / performance. However, the hopper-less 254 is better in the efficiency department. Opinions / comments welcome.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Sun. May. 30, 2021 3:19 pm

What size is your chimney?
How tall?
Masonry or metal?
Insulated or not?

Not sure how better efficiency translates to less of warm weather low, low burns compared to the 30-95.

I have this same question of wood burners who claim some tube stoves have better efficiency than other stoves yet have much shorter burns in comparison.

Would we not say that a car/truck getting better fuel economy is more efficient than another comparable sized car/truck? Even the same vehicle with different engines we can say one is more efficient than the other.Commercials even tout them as “more efficient “, right?

Maybe I am missing something.

 
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Post by oliver power » Sun. May. 30, 2021 9:10 pm

Lets start with getting the chimney out of the way. It is about 25' tall. 16" x 16" interior, cement block, with round flue. No insulation.

What you are missing Hoytman is; "interior stove design". Although the 254 & 30-95 share pretty much the same stove body, they are completely different on the inside. The 254 took me by total surprise. It easily goes 24 hours between tendings on less than 40 pounds of coal. I'm talking efficiency of coal consumption, not efficiency of the burn. The 30-95 stack temp runs hotter than the 254, which tells me more heat is rolling out the chimney. Great for weak drafts, and mild outside temp burning. The other mild weather plus the 30-95 has is; it only has one grate. Any primary air coming in the ash pan area is concentrated to one spot, and not distributed over two grates. So the reason the 30-95 is better during mild outdoors temps is: All combustion air is concentrated in one place. A little more heat going up the chimney, and a gravity fed hopper which pre-heats the coal before combustion. Those are the reasons the 30-95 shines on the low end.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Sun. May. 30, 2021 9:20 pm

Ok. That makes sense. Forgot about one having two grates the other having only one.

I too was referring to both wood and coal consumption.

When those wood guys tell me one stove is more efficient, solely by stove design, than a “longer burning” stove I just can’t seem to wrap my head around that. Reason being is if the same amount of fuel is used in approximately the same sized stoved, regardless of stove design...to me it only makes sense that a longer burning stove is also a cleaner burning wood stove. But, I’ll try not to mix the two stoves in this subject.

I certainly get the pre-heating coal idea of the hopper as well as easier and faster tending.

What diameter is your chimney, out of curiosity?

 
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Post by charlesosborne2002 » Sun. May. 30, 2021 9:42 pm

oliver power wrote:
Sun. May. 30, 2021 9:10 pm
Lets start with getting the chimney out of the way. It is about 25' tall. 16" x 16" interior, cement block, with round flue. No insulation.

What you are missing Hoytman is; "interior stove design". Although the 254 & 30-95 share pretty much the same stove body, they are completely different on the inside. The 254 took me by total surprise. It easily goes 24 hours between tendings on less than 40 pounds of coal. I'm talking efficiency of coal consumption, not efficiency of the burn. The 30-95 stack temp runs hotter than the 254, which tells me more heat is rolling out the chimney. Great for weak drafts, and mild outside temp burning. The other mild weather plus the 30-95 has is; it only has one grate. Any primary air coming in the ash pan area is concentrated to one spot, and not distributed over two grates. So the reason the 30-95 is better during mild outdoors temps is: All combustion air is concentrated in one place. A little more heat going up the chimney, and a gravity fed hopper which pre-heats the coal before combustion. Those are the reasons the 30-95 shines on the low end.
Does the 30-95 hopper hold 50 pounds, plus what is in the firebox, or is that 50 altogether? My stove holds 50 altogether (well, no hopper), and I can't go 24 hours. However, I can slice and fill just the center grates every 12 hours and leave the sides alone for lower temp (Vigilant 2). Below 300 is pushing it for me. Maybe pea coal would go slower, but I can't get that.

 
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Post by McGiever » Mon. May. 31, 2021 11:57 am

Maybe had he been running hotter he would have had more air going through the stove instead of relying on the baro to help take hot air from the room to increase his draft.
That just isn’t true!!
Any Room air hot or cold added by a baro will only lessen the chimney draft, never increase.

And furthermore if draft is becoming poor the baro is then headed towards being closed anyways.


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