Lost my draft

 
coalder
Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: Mon. Dec. 16, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: somewhere high in the catskill mountains
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Post by coalder » Tue. Dec. 08, 2020 9:49 am

B, also noted that your stovepipe goes into hollow-core blocks. W/O thimble or blocks packed full of mortar around penetration those gasses could be escaping at your sill plate.
Jim


 
User avatar
BlackBetty06
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue. Jan. 01, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Lancaster county PA
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Nut
Other Heating: Jotul 118b woodstove, dual fuel heat pump/condensing propane furnace

Post by BlackBetty06 » Tue. Dec. 08, 2020 5:27 pm

coalder wrote:
Tue. Dec. 08, 2020 8:55 am
B, The upper penetration is a moot point. But you can pack it with masonry just to be sure. I have the same thing, 2 thimbles in one flue. I just bought a insulated SS cap & plugged it. It's not causing a draft loss as the chimney cap is preventing any air around the flue from escaping. Your top flue is spalling because the mason who cut the flue put the cut end up. Once the flue is cut it is no longer glazed at the cut. All cuts in flues should face down. Yes raise the chimney 2 Ft. It will increase draft & the new flue will cover the cut thereby stopping any further spalling. Also, go with a 6 inch thimble when the time comes otherwise you will need a stove pipe adapter & a lot of unnecessary demo work to get it in. You can try insulating if you like, but for the most part so little can get around a flue it's hardly worth it.
Jim
So you are using the bottom of your two flue penetrations as well? You didn’t do anything special for the top one other than cement in a stainless cap. Correct?

 
User avatar
BlackBetty06
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue. Jan. 01, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Lancaster county PA
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Nut
Other Heating: Jotul 118b woodstove, dual fuel heat pump/condensing propane furnace

Post by BlackBetty06 » Tue. Dec. 08, 2020 5:30 pm

coalder wrote:
Tue. Dec. 08, 2020 9:49 am
B, also noted that your stovepipe goes into hollow-core blocks. W/O thimble or blocks packed full of mortar around penetration those gasses could be escaping at your sill plate.
Jim
I could be wrong but I think they changed it up for the chimney from the regular block
image.jpg
.JPG | 794KB | image.jpg

 
coalder
Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: Mon. Dec. 16, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: somewhere high in the catskill mountains
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Post by coalder » Tue. Dec. 08, 2020 6:13 pm

Yes, lower thimble & just used SS plug in upper one, no mud required.
Jim

 
User avatar
BlackBetty06
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue. Jan. 01, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Lancaster county PA
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Nut
Other Heating: Jotul 118b woodstove, dual fuel heat pump/condensing propane furnace

Post by BlackBetty06 » Tue. Dec. 08, 2020 8:47 pm

coalder wrote:
Tue. Dec. 08, 2020 6:13 pm
Yes, lower thimble & just used SS plug in upper one, no mud required.
Jim
I like your furnace by the way. I have always been a huge fan of Harman. My dad no longer burns coal and has given me his Mark 3. Its still in his basement however as I dont have another flue for it plus it gives him heat if the furnace takes a crap. I would like to heat a season with it to compare it to the Hitzer 50-93. I know the tending will be longer due to no hopper, sitting there with the ash door open waiting for the fresh coal volatiles to ignite before closing up, but would be curious to compare coal usage and heat output. I have no gripes about my 50-93 as it is a great heater and extremely fast to tend.The mark 3 has that top baffle in it that would appear to slow the flue gasses more than the 50-93 but I could be wrong on that too.

 
User avatar
N2wly
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun. Jul. 21, 2019 7:20 pm
Location: NEW JERSEY
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Franco Belge 10.275
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Post by N2wly » Fri. Dec. 11, 2020 8:50 am

I see on here alot of guys have manometers permanently attached to there stoves. Whats the point either you have a pos draft or you don't. If you don't you light a piece of newspaper and drop it down th flue and it takes off then you light the stove. Thats all I had to do. I have a dwyer hand held meter from work but I don't think I need to check the draft with it. Im just curious about mounting permadently.
Thanks

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Fri. Dec. 11, 2020 8:59 am

Conditions change and it's nice to be able to see if the draft is trending towards a failure.


 
User avatar
warminmn
Member
Posts: 8108
Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: Land of 11,842 lakes
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt

Post by warminmn » Fri. Dec. 11, 2020 9:36 am

+1 on that Lightning. I can tell 5 minutes before a snowfall too as it always drops way down if its not windy. My draft really moves around here. Some here have a rock steady draft and you are very lucky.

 
franco b
Site Moderator
Posts: 11416
Joined: Wed. Nov. 05, 2008 5:11 pm
Location: Kent CT
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Post by franco b » Fri. Dec. 11, 2020 9:47 am

I have not read all this thread, but with the draft failure the first thing i would check is the flap for the thermostat. It should be wide open. If not, then the fire would have gotten low enough for the draft to fail.

Early on in this thread the fire revived quickly with the ash door open. That should not have been necessary if the bi- metal were working properly. Look for sticking or the magnet holding the flap too tightly.

 
Hoytman
Member
Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil

Post by Hoytman » Fri. Dec. 11, 2020 12:03 pm

Good point Franco b on checking the thermostat.
Last year was my first year burning coal. My flap was making tinking noise constantly. I knew the chain didn’t need adjusting because there were times it would close. I thought possibly it could be the magnet needing adjusting. Upon inspection the flap was far enough away from the magnet where it was not affecting the flap, so couldn’t be the magnet because it wasn’t touching anything. The tinking was actually a squeaking noise coming from the make-shift hinge....that is not really a hinge at all. There’s a slot in the flapper that slips over a piece of metal that is bent into a curve to form a make shift hinge. It’s not a hinge in the typical sense with a hinge pin. So, after looking at it closely I knew it was a friction problem and a little anti-seize on a q-tip fixed the squeaking or tinking noise promptly. Haven’t had an issue since and if I do I’ll out more anti-seize on it to fix it. It never made a peep the rest of the season.

 
User avatar
BlackBetty06
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue. Jan. 01, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Lancaster county PA
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Nut
Other Heating: Jotul 118b woodstove, dual fuel heat pump/condensing propane furnace

Post by BlackBetty06 » Sat. Dec. 12, 2020 4:09 pm

Shut er down. Made a proper chimney connection for the first time since 1959. Pulled all pipes apart and put a bead of Rutland cement on the crimped joints and pushed together. Once this heat wave is over, I’ll be giving it a good test. Neighbor is slow so the chimney hasn’t been extended yet. He bailed on me this weekend so he gets to extend the chimney with the stove burning. Chopped out and re routed the furnace vents. Made new heat shields for above and beside. Should be good to go now.

Attachments


 
User avatar
BlackBetty06
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue. Jan. 01, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Lancaster county PA
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Nut
Other Heating: Jotul 118b woodstove, dual fuel heat pump/condensing propane furnace

Post by BlackBetty06 » Sat. Dec. 12, 2020 4:11 pm

Sorry for the sideways pics but you get the idea. I put two 6” clay chimney crocks in to fill the two penetrations properly. Then I packed the top with Roxul and cemented in that flue plug

 
User avatar
BlackBetty06
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue. Jan. 01, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Lancaster county PA
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Nut
Other Heating: Jotul 118b woodstove, dual fuel heat pump/condensing propane furnace

Post by BlackBetty06 » Mon. Dec. 21, 2020 6:08 pm

Well lost my draft again today. It was hazy and foggy about 40 degrees with still air. Stove pipe is in great shape. Chimney has been repaired with a new crock. Havent gotten it extended yet because the neighbor hasnt gotten up here to do it. Has been going good until today. The stove worked fine last year. The ONLY thing that changed in this house is the fact that instead of using (4) 2 foot sections of stove pipe, I replaced them with (2) 4 foot sections of stove pipe. All pipe joints are sealed with furnace cement including the thimble as you can see in the pics above. Even with a stalled draft how would all this CO be escaping. Ash pan door gasket is in good shape or the stove would over fire. Door gasket is good or I would see blue flames where the air is leaking in acting as secondary air. The hopper gasket has a spot where I can pull a dollar bill out relatively easy but even with a stalled draft I smelled very close all around the top and could not smell any coal gas. I have 2 windows open in the house when this is happening. I open the ash pan door and have a draft of -.05 or higher within 15 seconds. I dont know what gives? The only thing I could think of is all of those old pipe joints that I did not ever seal, were letting in enough leaking air to keep flow through the chimney. As said before, this chimney pulls a draft when the stove is out so how the hell am I not pulling a draft with 100 pounds of burning coal in it. I know one thing for sure though, Im not going to die over saving a little money not burning propane, so if I cant get this issue rectified, there is going to be a 5 year old Hitzer 50-93 for sale on here in short order.

 
Toddburn
Member
Posts: 804
Joined: Wed. Aug. 28, 2019 7:38 pm
Location: Southwest P.A.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 983/ Hitzer 55
Coal Size/Type: Nut anthracite/pea
Other Heating: Heat pump/forced air

Post by Toddburn » Mon. Dec. 21, 2020 7:20 pm

BlackBetty it was mentioned earlier did you check if your bimetallic was operating correctly? Another idea my Hitzer 55 came with a baffle inside the the door of the flapper not sure if the 50/93 does if so take it out and throw it over the hill.

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Mon. Dec. 21, 2020 7:27 pm

BlackBetty06 wrote:
Mon. Dec. 21, 2020 6:08 pm
It was hazy and foggy about 40 degrees with still air.
Humid air is lighter than dry air so it raises the bar for the coal exhaust to be more buoyant and go up the chimney.
BlackBetty06 wrote:
Mon. Dec. 21, 2020 6:08 pm
with a stalled draft how would all this CO be escaping.
The fuel bed still can pull combustion air up thru it (ever so slightly) without a chimney draft. Then without a chimney draft it vents out into the stove room.
BlackBetty06 wrote:
Mon. Dec. 21, 2020 6:08 pm
I open the ash pan door and have a draft of -.05 or higher within 15 seconds.
That makes sense, you are sending a huge volume of heated air mass up the chimney.
BlackBetty06 wrote:
Mon. Dec. 21, 2020 6:08 pm
said before, this chimney pulls a draft when the stove is out so how the hell am I not pulling a draft with 100 pounds of burning coal in it.
Yep, when conditions are right it will draft. For example in the late evening when the chimney is warm from daytime heating and the OAT is falling, it will draft. But then in the morning when the chimney is cold and the OAT increases, the draft will stall and reverse. I've done demonstrations to show this occurrence.
BlackBetty06 wrote:
Mon. Dec. 21, 2020 6:08 pm
so if I cant get this issue rectified, there is going to be a 5 year old Hitzer 50-93 for sale on here in short order.
You NEED extra secondary air for more heated air mass to keep the chimney drafting. I solved my draft failures with secondary air. I proved it again and again beyond the possibility of coincidence.... and I'll say it again, it works. So find a way to add secondary air, run the stove hotter and over heat the house or pay 3 times the price to heat with propain.


Post Reply

Return to “Hand Fired Coal Stoves & Furnaces Using Anthracite”