The Emperor's new clothes

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coalder
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Location: somewhere high in the catskill mountains
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Post by coalder » Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 4:41 pm

Hey all, had a pretty bust summer this year. Helped a friend of my son & mine Joe put up a new house 2400 sq ft with full basement with radiant plus a 32x32 garage also with radiant. Gettin to old for all this concrete work plus chimney block chimney. Thought I was retired? :D Now the k-A 6 is awaiting the install. Also another friend, classmate of my son Chris is contemplating also switching from wood to coal. GREAT!!! Small house, 1100 sq ft poorly insulated. House is block walls. Suggested rip out down to block, ad foam board furring & then Sheetrock. Perfect size for HItzer 30-95 under these conditions. Now my question is I have also, just been looking at the DS Anthramax with it's " circulator" tubes. And I cant quite convince myself that such a design is any better than conventional radiation. After all heat naturally rises & should/will draw the lower colder air to it. Right? SOOOO what is with those tubes. My conventional wisdom, " little as it may be" says It's just as much a gimmick as " the Emperor's New Clothes". A penny for your thoughts.
Jim

 
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Sunny Boy
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Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 5:14 pm

I'm with you Jim, about the convection within a confined space, verse not confined.

As far as air flow removing heat, there is the problem of, because of surface resistance, air does not like to flow close to a surface - including the inside of tubes and ducts. This can be proven by inserting thermocouple, and/or, a mano probe into the stove pipe and seeing the temp differences and mano readings near the pipe wall, verses further in toward the middle of the exhaust stream.

Plus, having that stove surface heat being radiated inside some sheet metal negates some of the low spectrum wave heat radiation. Simple test of that,.... put your hand near the stove. Now put a piece of sheet metal between your hand and that same place on the stove.


Does anyone else realize that "heat shields" work on the same principal as "convection" duct work. And where does the heat shield move that heat to ? Not down low in the room like the nickeled skirts of the early cylinder stoves did. :roll:

Paul

 
coalder
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Joined: Mon. Dec. 16, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: somewhere high in the catskill mountains
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
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Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Post by coalder » Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 5:23 pm

Thank you Paul, As DS has, to my knowledge, not made any comparisons to any other radiant stove in their particular BTU range. I would love to see, in a controlled environment, how their largest Anthramax stacks up to a 50-93.
JIm


 
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oliver power
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Location: Near Dansville, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-2310), D.S. 1600 Circulator, Hitzer 254

Post by oliver power » Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 5:31 pm

If you have good insulation, and can keep the heat in, the circulator tubes do work. They actually pull cool air up from the floor, heat it, and send it up, building a heat mass. once the heat mass is built, it will feel like hot water heat.....quite even throughout. And very comfortable. Where as with a radiant stove, it throws heat out. And yes, heat rises from the firepot level. The numbers are good on the D.S. (stove body vs Stack temp). The D.S. is not a performance stove. It is a maintainer stove. You can not have heat loss. You will feel more heat coming off a radiant stove, but will need a fan to move it out to far places. The radiant stove doesn't pull cool air off the floor, and heat it.

In other words, you will feel more heat coming off a radiant stove, as it is thrown out. Even if you have a heat loss, you will still feel the heat coming off a radiant stove, before it's lost.

The D.S. sends it's heat up, not out. Any heat loss, and heat will not build. It needs to build before you feel comfort. If you can build that mass, it's very comfortable. Way more comfortable than a radiant stove. That's been my experience.
Last edited by oliver power on Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 6:26 pm, edited 5 times in total.

 
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oliver power
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Posts: 2970
Joined: Sun. Apr. 16, 2006 9:28 am
Location: Near Dansville, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-2310), D.S. 1600 Circulator, Hitzer 254

Post by oliver power » Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 5:47 pm

coalder wrote:
Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 5:23 pm
Thank you Paul, As DS has, to my knowledge, not made any comparisons to any other radiant stove in their particular BTU range. I would love to see, in a controlled environment, how their largest Anthramax stacks up to a 50-93.
JIm
I can say this Jim; The biggest Circulator D.S. has (1600) can not hold a candle to the 30-95 in performance. Not even close. The 30-95 (with fan) will blow it away. The 50-93 will blow the 30-95 away....... The biggest Anthramax is a 1600, with I believe two less circulator tubes than the actual D.S. 1600 circulator. If D.S. does have a fan kit like someone recently said, that may change things.

 
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VigIIPeaBurner
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Location: Pequest River Valley, Warren Co NJ
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Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 9:14 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 5:14 pm
I'm with you Jim, about the convection within a confined space, verse not confined.

As far as air flow removing heat, there is the problem of, because of surface resistance, air does not like to flow close to a surface - including the inside of tubes and ducts. This can be proven by inserting thermocouple, and/or, a mano probe into the stove pipe and seeing the temp differences and mano readings near the pipe wall, verses further in toward the middle of the exhaust stream.

Plus, having that stove surface heat being radiated inside some sheet metal negates some of the low spectrum wave heat radiation. Simple test of that,.... put your hand near the stove. Now put a piece of sheet metal between your hand and that same place on the stove.


Does anyone else realize that "heat shields" work on the same principal as "convection" duct work. And where does the heat shield move that heat to ? Not down low in the room like the nickeled skirts of the early cylinder stoves did. :roll:

Paul
Yup, I have had rear heat shields on both radiant stoves I've had. Put a back shield on the first stove to move more air instead of roasting the brick behind the stove. It worked well so I did the same when we moved and got a new stove.

My stove has big front windows with a grill holding back the glowing coal. The side and top of the fire is right near the glass. More heat can be detected in front of the windows than in front of the cast iron.


 
fig
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Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 7.1/DS Machine basement stove/ Harman SF1500
Baseburners & Antiques: Renown Parlor stove 87B
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous/anthracite
Other Heating: Harman Accentra, enviro omega, Vermont Ironworks Elm stove, Quadrafire Mt Vernon, Logwood stove, Sotz barrel stove,

Post by fig » Sun. Dec. 08, 2019 11:28 pm

This is a bit off topic but you mention your friend owns a block house and is considering insulating. I too have a block home and was going to insulate. All the information I could find about insulating block homes strongly advises against it. The block needs the heat to keep the mortar joints from becoming to wet. If the heat is removed more moisture wicks into the mortar joints causing failure. When I bought my house my intensions were to immediately tear out the plaster and lathe so I could insulate. My research on the matter quickly changed my mind. I have been trying to heat a tomb for 20 years. This led me to here and I’m still struggling to heat it. I certainly wish I had not bought this block house but I live with the hand I’m dealt. Best of luck.

 
CapeCoaler
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Location: Cape Cod, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Dec. 09, 2019 9:35 am

On the block houses...
You need to create a new shell/envelope on the outside...
But that requires building out the frames of all windows and doors...
It can be done but requires good waterproofing and attention to vapor permeability...
Had the basement #4 from DS Machine...
No pipes just sheet metal box on the sides...
Worked great on the old drafty cottage by the beach...

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