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charlesosborne2002
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Post by charlesosborne2002 » Mon. Jan. 27, 2020 10:05 am

fig wrote:
Mon. Jan. 27, 2020 7:54 am
I’ve been having ALOT of clinkers. I have to clean out the whole stove about 1x a week. I get about 10 lbs of them ranging from size of a quarter to the size of my fist.
Rocks indeed.

10 more bags to go. I think I will only buy TSC in an emergency.
Fig, I have that problem--sometimes. I think the science of it is complicated--burning too hot or too cool too long, the technique of shaking and riddling, general stove and chimney conditions (and model), and so forth can affect the quantity of clinkers, yes? I have read that anthracite can vary in carbon content (versus metals and other elements) somewhat, but this will occur naturally even within a given mine. Natural products have variations, whether animal, vegetable, or mineral. Also, human processing of anything natural will introduce variations--I assume a coal breaker for chestnut size will naturally pass diverse sizes and shapes within the limits of the grates (long and narrow will pass just as broken off bits). No mine inspects each nugget before bagging, though of course my mileage may differ in the event.
Last year was my first year, and the problems some people have with TSC coal are the very problems I had with the Lowe's coal I tried. (I think they no longer carry it.) My impression was that my Lowe's store handled things roughly--some of my bags were torn loading them for me (or before), spilling some of it. (I like Lowe's for many things, though.) My TSC store is so careful and accommodating with things that all my bags get home looking brand new/never touched.
Still, sometimes I get more clinkers than other times. Even, constant heat with regular, consistent shaking (and especially riddling) seems to help. The slicer can pull small clinkers through the grates before they grow. I can't get pea-sized coal, but those here who have my stove model seem to get better results with it. It burns slower and steadier and would probably be better in my climate (Zone 6 Dept. of Agriculture). Much of my winter continues to have (off and on) days in the 50's or 40's, so the stove is choked down as far as it will go for long periods. My theory is that this makes it an incubator for clinkers, apart from all the other issues. This has been a mild winter even in coal country, mostly.


 
fig
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Post by fig » Mon. Jan. 27, 2020 1:15 pm

Yeh I am New to anthracite. My stove is small so I push it hard. I riddle twice a day. Rarely do I touch the top. It could be me.

When I burn bit I have way fewer clinkers. A few days ago I started mixing bit in with the Tsc stuff so I’ll see what happens there. It seems to help greatly during reloads. The temps don’t dive like they do with plain anthracite.

 
charlesosborne2002
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Post by charlesosborne2002 » Mon. Jan. 27, 2020 3:02 pm

That is interesting about fewer clinkers with bit. Maybe the impurities go up the chimney, or more so. When I load anthra, the temp does crash down. But now I pour some fresh coal on before starting the shaking and riddling. This helps settle the air gap underneath. and gets new coal started before dumping in the new load. (Other than that, I don't proceed in layers.)

 
Ultralume
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Post by Ultralume » Mon. Jan. 27, 2020 10:01 pm

Interesting observations. I normally use pea coal. The smaller clinkers fall through the grate during shakedowns so they’re not usually a problem

 
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keegs
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Post by keegs » Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 12:39 pm

Well I think I've made my peace with this crappy TSC coal. It's mix of what-have-youz, nut, pea, rice, fines....but the stuff's been keeping us warm for four days now. It's going down to -10F tonight up here in el norte and we're glad to have it and the Chubby. Stay warm everybody.

 
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warminmn
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Post by warminmn » Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 12:55 pm

Yep, the best you've had, the worst you've had, all on one pallet, lol. But it does keep you warm.

 
Hoytman
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Post by Hoytman » Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 2:32 pm

keegs wrote:
Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 12:39 pm
Well I think I've made my peace with this crappy TSC coal. It's mix of what-have-youz, nut, pea, rice, fines....but the stuff's been keeping us warm for four days now. It's going down to -10F tonight up here in el norte and we're glad to have it and the Chubby. Stay warm everybody.
Ha ha!!!
I’ve been burning TSC nut for 4 days as well, and I agree with your description of a “mix”, but I’m not sure I’ve made my piece with it.

So far I’ve noted finer ash and a little less of it between shakings though I’m not so sure what that means. Some might say it’s burning better, but I’m not sure I’d agree. Perhaps it’s burning that way because of the fines and less air as a result of the fines, but that’s just a guess. Lots of volatiles and blues, big and tall, but with the same outside temperature and the same dial setting on the Hitzer, my home is about 4 degrees cooler. Gave me my first micro-poof but it was contained within the stove.

Stirs up quite the black dust when shoveling in the stove. I can’t imagine feeding it into a hopper fed stove with all that fine dust and fines because it would make a mess. Coal isn’t wet, but it’s like the fines are sticking to it and when I shovel it from the hod I can see real fine dust coming off of it. It’ll find its way on my walls and furniture.

Glad to have the heat though...also glad I only bought 6 bags because I’ll gladly pay the difference in cost of it versus Blashak....which I have 5 bags of nut left and five of pea. Soon as the TSC is done going to open the 10 bags of Lehigh nut.


 
charlesosborne2002
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Post by charlesosborne2002 » Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 3:46 pm

Hoytman wrote:
Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 2:32 pm
Ha ha!!!
I’ve been burning TSC nut for 4 days as well, and I agree with your description of a “mix”, but I’m not sure I’ve made my piece with it.

So far I’ve noted finer ash and a little less of it between shakings though I’m not so sure what that means. Some might say it’s burning better, but I’m not sure I’d agree. Perhaps it’s burning that way because of the fines and less air as a result of the fines, but that’s just a guess. Lots of volatiles and blues, big and tall, but with the same outside temperature and the same dial setting on the Hitzer, my home is about 4 degrees cooler. Gave me my first micro-poof but it was contained within the stove.

Stirs up quite the black dust when shoveling in the stove. I can’t imagine feeding it into a hopper fed stove with all that fine dust and fines because it would make a mess. Coal isn’t wet, but it’s like the fines are sticking to it and when I shovel it from the hod I can see real fine dust coming off of it. It’ll find its way on my walls and furniture.

Glad to have the heat though...also glad I only bought 6 bags because I’ll gladly pay the difference in cost of it versus Blashak....which I have 5 bags of nut left and five of pea. Soon as the TSC is done going to open the 10 bags of Lehigh nut.
Mine loads through the top (the griddle swings up)--I just pour it in and any fines are on the bottom of the hod, so they just scatter on top. I am sure they are the first to go when it gets up to speed. I would say a tablespoon or two per hod, though I have not tried to measure it. If you have to spoon-feed it in front, a different method may be required.

Coal is not sold anywhere near here, but TSC is nice enough to order it for me without any extra shipping added--a serious consideration for a heavy product. It is not really cheaper than my natural gas here, but much more cozy. My house had propane when I bought it, and the second year it cost over $3000 to fill during a cold spell. Coal runs $400-600. Many people in this area use propane out in the country, and electricity there is very high also, so I don't know why more of them do not use coal. Many of them do use wood pellets or wood stoves. If you buy the firewood, it costs as much as coal, or more, with a lot of work even when you buy it. Firewood around here runs about $300/cord for 16 million BTUs, against similar price for 29 million BTUs with anthracite. Wood pellets seem to cost more per BTU than coal. But of course nobody even knows about coal, and they don't know that EPA has no problem with it in homes. I could see restricting bituminous in cities where the air is already at dangerous levels (LA or Memphis, etc.), but that does not apply to anthracite. Yes, we emit CO2, but so does wood or gas or propane--worst of all, electricity made from dirty coal. I read that if fallen trees are not used for firewood, the slow rotting process actually releases more CO2 than burning it. So forests add oxygen--but also CO2. I wonder if fast growing soft plants put out as much oxygen as trees, all things considered (such as time it takes). The biggest crop in Arkansas is marijuana (in dollars), so if it does not save the planet making oxygen, it makes the end more hilarious.

 
Ultralume
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Post by Ultralume » Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 9:42 pm

My issue with evaluating TSC coal is that I don’t have a good reference for comparison. Here is what I have for comparison which is burned in a Vigilant 2310 hand fired stove:

1. Brand X: I got a few thousand pounds of unknown brand X anthracite pea coal. It was stored in an outside bin and both dirt and some stones were shoveled into the bag along with the coal when I went to get it. Prior to burning I sift and remove stones so that brand X coal has no fines or dirt upon entering the stove.

2. “Cornwall Coal” bagged nut and Stove Coal. There is a coal distributor in Orange County New York nearby from which I get coal. I have no idea from which mine they get it from.

3. TSC bagged coal... which is (from what I’ve been reading ) of various sizes, quality and ash content...

Comparing apples to oranges due to coal being of different sizes...

Brand X pea coal.. seems to have a lot of iron. Woven Bags left outside will leak rust water when they are rained on. Doesn’t have any fines or dirt because I sift it prior to burning. Burns well but not as long as TSC or Cornwall. It will go 12 hours but is much easier refueling every 8 hours. Seems to “evaporate” and dwindle down to 1/3 its original volume (height) in the stove after 12 hours. It doesn’t leave clinkers that I know of since they probably are small coming from pea coal and get pushed out during shakedown/poking. Ashes are white and fine. If I were to guess brand X may be Old Company Leheigh but I have no way of knowing.
2. Cornwall coal... has some fines in the bag. The pieces seem large for both nut and Stove coal. Coal is wet in the bag. Easily burns for 12 hours or more. Eventually it leaves clinkers that I have to break with the poker. I can’t say if it’s better than brand X since I’m comparing pea coal to nut and stove size. Not sure if there are more or less clinkers since pea coal clinkers will fall through the grates while nut and stove will not. It’s probably not a fair comparison. Seems like there is more ash than with brand X. It doesn’t seem to evaporate as brand X after a 12 hour burn. Ashes need to the poked and shaken down.
3. TSC coal.... comes in a plastic bag like Cornwall. Wet inside the bags as well. More or less the same amount of fines as Cornwall. It burns hot and for a long time easily lasting 12 hours or more. Ashes are very white and fine.
That’s why I think it’s not bad. I don’t have a good reference to comparen it against. Maybe time to get some Blaschak coal to try it out.

Anyone know from where Cornwall Coal gets its anthracite from? Any ideas from my description from which mine my brand X coal came from...

 
Hoytman
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Post by Hoytman » Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 10:36 pm

I know Fred says blues aren’t necessary and I had finally discovered what he meant with the Blashak nut coal. I got to where I didn’t need to ramp the fire up. I just loaded the coal and left some glowing red and left my damper and spinners open slightly for a while, then I’d close it up, but this TSC nut is much different.

I get big blues even when I don’t try. Actually, I can’t stop them. I’m not even opening the ash pan door, just the damper and the spinners. I let the bi-metallic do what it does.

It doesn’t take near as long for it to light up either and the blues last and last and last even after I close the damper and the spinners are barely cracked.
These have been burning for 30 minutes and will easily approach 45 minutes to an hour before they subside...flap starting to close...just barely bobbing open/closed.

Whup!! Just heard the flap tap closed. Blues on sides still going strong and center hasn’t lit off yet, but when it does it’ll go an hour easy as I said.
Last edited by Hoytman on Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
charlesosborne2002
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Post by charlesosborne2002 » Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 10:42 pm

Ultralume wrote:
Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 9:42 pm
My issue with evaluating TSC coal is that I don’t have a good reference for comparison. Here is what I have for comparison which is burned in a Vigilant 2310 hand fired stove:

1. Brand X: I got a few thousand pounds of unknown brand X anthracite pea coal. It was stored in an outside bin and both dirt and some stones were shoveled into the bag along with the coal when I went to get it. Prior to burning I sift and remove stones so that brand X coal has no fines or dirt upon entering the stove.

2. “Cornwall Coal” bagged nut and Stove Coal. There is a coal distributor in Orange County New York nearby from which I get coal. I have no idea from which mine they get it from.

3. TSC bagged coal... which is (from what I’ve been reading ) of various sizes, quality and ash content...

Comparing apples to oranges due to coal being of different sizes...

Brand X pea coal.. seems to have a lot of iron. Woven Bags left outside will leak rust water when they are rained on. Doesn’t have any fines or dirt because I sift it prior to burning. Burns well but not as long as TSC or Cornwall. It will go 12 hours but is much easier refueling every 8 hours. Seems to “evaporate” and dwindle down to 1/3 its original volume (height) in the stove after 12 hours. It doesn’t leave clinkers that I know of since they probably are small coming from pea coal and get pushed out during shakedown/poking. Ashes are white and fine. If I were to guess brand X may be Old Company Leheigh but I have no way of knowing.
2. Cornwall coal... has some fines in the bag. The pieces seem large for both nut and Stove coal. Coal is wet in the bag. Easily burns for 12 hours or more. Eventually it leaves clinkers that I have to break with the poker. I can’t say if it’s better than brand X since I’m comparing pea coal to nut and stove size. Not sure if there are more or less clinkers since pea coal clinkers will fall through the grates while nut and stove will not. It’s probably not a fair comparison. Seems like there is more ash than with brand X. It doesn’t seem to evaporate as brand X after a 12 hour burn. Ashes need to the poked and shaken down.
3. TSC coal.... comes in a plastic bag like Cornwall. Wet inside the bags as well. More or less the same amount of fines as Cornwall. It burns hot and for a long time easily lasting 12 hours or more. Ashes are very white and fine.
That’s why I think it’s not bad. I don’t have a good reference to comparen it against. Maybe time to get some Blaschak coal to try it out.

Anyone know from where Cornwall Coal gets its anthracite from? Any ideas from my description from which mine my brand X coal came from...
ultra, thanks for that comparison. I wish I could get pea coal. I tried to reach the buying office of TSC, with no success. So far I have never been able to find where the no-brand coal comes from--it may be part of their agreement that the source is not identified. The Anti-Trust Acts outlaw selling at a lower price to big customers, but if the product comes in generic (or private label) package, there is no violation. This has long been a way big companies get around the law--private label is not the same product as branded packages, though usually there is some slight difference in the product (typically not quite as good). So if you shop for cheaper store brands or generics, you may be satisfied with generic coal. It is all I can get, so...

 
Hoytman
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Post by Hoytman » Sat. Feb. 08, 2020 11:42 pm

What I find strange about the TSC nut coal and those long lasting blues is that yes, I get a lot of heat off those blues initially and the bi-metallic flap stays closed a long time. After those blues are gone it’s like it doesn’t give off much heat. As I said, I have not moved my dial and the IAT is 2-4 degrees cooler over a twelve hour period. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it is roughly half a number difference on the bi-metallic dial.

 
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keegs
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Post by keegs » Sun. Feb. 09, 2020 1:37 am

franco b wrote:
Fri. Nov. 28, 2008 5:47 pm
The color of the flame depends upon when the air is mixed with the fuel, before or after it is turned to gas and ignited. Blue flame is gas mixed with air before it ignites while yellow flame is bits of carbon that receives its air only after ignition temps are reached.

If you look at a candle flame there is blue flame at the base which is gas and yellow flame at the tip which is carbon burning.

If you have ever adjusted the flame on a gas stove you will have noticed that if the air inlet is closed too much the flame will be yellow. Pre- mixing air with the gas gives a blue flame.

Most oil burners burn with a yellow flame. The oil is sprayed into the combustion chamber along with air. This causes the carbon to ignite before it can turn to gas so has a yellow flame. The old Timken burners converted the oil to gas before ignition and burned with a rolling blue flame.

A properly designed wood stove can also burn with a blue flame.

If you ground coal to a powder and blew it through a pipe it would also burn yellow.

Richard



New Load of Coal, Yellow/Blue Flame?

 
Hoytman
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Post by Hoytman » Sun. Feb. 09, 2020 8:59 am

Are you asking me? I see very little flame any other color, but blue. Maybe a little reddish here and there, but I think that’s because of small pieces of wood found in the bags...usually 4 or 5 pieces 1/2” wide and 3”-5” long and 1/4” thick.

 
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keegs
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Post by keegs » Sun. Feb. 09, 2020 9:51 am

Hi Bill, I posted a thread from a ways back that discussed the issue you raise. I thought franco b did a nice job describing what makes the blue flame.

I can't say this for sure but I think as it relates to the everyday experience of burning coal, I see the blue flame mostly over coals that are not fully ignited. Once a bed of fresh coal is fully lit and the coals bits are red in color (rather than black), there may still be some blue flame around the margin, but more of the flame is burning yellow.


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