Hello All, Oil Furnace -->Coal Conversion, Liner Opinions?

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Trionic
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Post by Trionic » Mon. Oct. 22, 2018 10:36 pm

Hello all, I just bought a used Alaska Kodiak for our unfinished basement.

The past few day's I've been researching whether to line my chimney, and what with, and links for this site kept popping up so I figured I'd join and first say thank you to all the folks who are freely sharing their knowledge.

Our house was built 1959/1960, it's a full masonry home, cinder block walls from the basement pad to the roof joists, the outside has an air gap and queen size brick, and the inside has an air gap then real sheetrock with a plaster skim coat. No insulation except blown in the attic to R38.

So anyway, we upgraded to a geothermal closed loop well system with the compressor unit in the basement and the air handler in the attic and removed the old oil furnace and perimeter baseboard heat. I'm putting the Kodiak in the basement so that we can feel warm. The forced air feels good when you come inside and it's cold out, but after that it's pretty miserable.

I'm hoping to get some opinions from the kind folks on this forum, and I think I know the answer, but is this worth lining:

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It's surprising to me how clean it is after more than 50 years of oil furnace exhaust running through it. Total length should be about 20-25 ft.

Here's the stove:

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I located a .pdf the owners manual online for the newer version of this stove (11 fire bricks, vs the 4 bricks this version has), and realized it's missing a baffle in the back. I called Alaska and they were really helpful and are sending me a new baffle and shaker handle, and was even willing to send me a copy of the manual. It seems like a nice company.

It's a dual chimney, we burnt a bunch of wood last year in the right side on the main floor. I lined the wood stove side with a flexible 316Ti liner, which cleaned up real nicely with a little shop vac with a bunch of extensions this evening, winter is coming.

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Anyway, I'm happy to find this place, if anyone has any thoughts on whether I should do anything with the unlined side that I'll be using for this new (to me) Kodiak, I'd definitely appreciate any input.

Thank you!

More pics are usually more better:

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Not really related, but maybe interesting, we burnt a lot of oak that was still a little green last year and got a bunch of creosote buildup in the side that I lined for the wood stove. The liner cleaned up really well with just a little bit of work with extension on the shop vac, I pretty much just rubbed the vac tube against it and it just flaked right off, no big deal. I'm pretty amazed actually.

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Last edited by Trionic on Mon. Oct. 22, 2018 10:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.


 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Mon. Oct. 22, 2018 10:42 pm

That chimney looks beautiful to me. No liner needed :)

Welcome aboard!

 
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Trionic
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Post by Trionic » Mon. Oct. 22, 2018 10:53 pm

Awesome, thank you.

So no cap on the top or anything like that either? It just seems too easy.

I was gearing up to try to drag another 6" liner down through there, but with an extra 8 or 10 feet to deal with.

 
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Oct. 23, 2018 12:27 am

Yes, I would use a rain cap. Make sure it's stainless steel with the mesh screen around it (similar to the one on the other flue) so birds or critters can't build a nest in it during the summer. My own belief is that keeping the rain out of the chimney will keep it healthier.

Coal fly ash and metal liners don't get along very well. Fly ash produces sulfuric acid when exposed to moisture. Some people have gotten a couple decades with extreme care and maintenance, some people only get a handful of years and they need replace. It's just better not to buy one if you don't need it, and that chimney looks great as far as I can tell. Clay lined or not, a block and mortar chimney is impervious to these acidic compounds. Be careful not to let a chimney sweeper talk you into buying a liner unless you thoroughly trust his opinion.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Fri. Oct. 26, 2018 10:33 pm

Good to go...
Put a cap on it...
No liner needed...
Inside chimney should draft real nice...
Looks like ya got about 2 feet over the ridge...
Might want another foot or 2 if the draft is low...

 
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Post by oliver power » Sat. Oct. 27, 2018 2:28 am

Chimney appears good to me as well. If it drafts good, you're all set. If it doesn't draft good on the stove end, and you decide to line the chimney, use something with a smooth interior wall. If metal, use 316 material. Keep the cap simple.

 
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Post by Trionic » Thu. Nov. 22, 2018 10:48 pm

Thanks for all the help!

Things have been busy here, but as an update, when I pulled out the old galvanized pipe that was connected to the oil furnace previously it wasn't good. The pipe was only about 6" long and didn't actually connect to the flue and it was corroded to pieces where it was touching the block.

And...it was like Al Capone's vault in there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mystery_of_Al_C ... 27s_Vaults)

Looking down to the left:

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Down and to the right:

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So essentially the pipe just terminated into a void with this space below, and it was clear that exhaust had been going into the webbing of the block, the clay liner just started in the top of the void and had been damaged. Also, the wall is unfinished in the basement, but the top of the pipe was only about 16" from the ceiling.

I spent a few days thinking about what to do, and eventually decided to move the hole down to allow for the proper 18" clearance to the ceiling, and fill the void up with sand to give me something to work on top of. So over the last 2 days I filled the void with nine 50 lb. bags of sand, layed in a bed of mortar on top of the sand, and set some fire bricks into the mortar to make a floor. I let that cure, then cut more fire brick to cover the back and side walls and set them with Rutland #600 refractory dry cast cement.

This was how the bottom of the liner terminated, the folks who did the install 50+ years ago must have broke the left side of the liner and left it like that. It's amazing there was never a problem with CO, for sure the walls would have been filled with exhaust from the old oil boiler:

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I cleaned things up with a wire brush, layed in fire brick behind it, wetted the surface and patched the damaged liner:

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Boxed-in and patched:

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All going as planned I'll be able to install a 6" clay thimble tomorrow. Since I lowered the hole in the wall, I have about a 2-3" gap to close on the top of the thimble, and I'm planning to cut more fire brick and cement in with refractory cement so it's clay to clay there.

So question, can I just use regular old mortar to close the gap and seal up the block around the thimble on the room side? As it happens I have 2 different mortars to choose from, latex modified porcelain-rated mortar, "mason's mix" brick/block mortar, or more of this dry mix refractory cement---I'd likely have to buy more cement after sealing up the thimble to liner junction.

Sorry for the long post, any/all opinions welcome. Happy Thanksgiving!

Hope everyone is staying warm this evening, I'm reading 18F here in PA as I'm typing this.


 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Fri. Nov. 23, 2018 9:41 am

You need a void for ash to collect at the intersection of the thimble and chimney flue...
That is why the large void was there...
A tee in the stove pipe will make it easy to do if i is near the thimble...
The liner should have gone lower when initially done...
Was a clean-out door installed in the void area?...

 
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Post by Richard S. » Fri. Nov. 23, 2018 11:31 am

CapeCoaler wrote:
Fri. Nov. 23, 2018 9:41 am
You need a void for ash to collect at the intersection of the thimble and chimney flue...
To elaborate the liner typically extends below the thimble, they have pre-cut pieces with a hole in it or the mason may do it. That void may extend down a few feet and there will typically be clean-out door. A lot of fly ash accumulates at that point and without the clean out you will have to keep a very good eye on the build up.

Quick tip here, wherever you are going to put an elbow on the flue pipe between the unit and thimble use a T instead. For example typically you will have straight piece coming out of the thimble and then an elbow pointing down. If you use a T instead you can cap the one end of the T, that can be used to inspect and even clean out the pipe during the season.

 
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Post by Trionic » Fri. Nov. 23, 2018 9:06 pm

What you guys wrote makes total sense. Before I opened it up I was actually thinking about adding a door below.

In this case there was no extension of the liner and there was definitely no clean out. I considered cutting out some wall to extend the liner and putting in a cleanout, but that's a ton more work and pulling the pipe off and cleaning things out won't be a huge problem.

This chimney draws like crazy, it's interior and sucked up all the dust while I was working on things, I could see it going past. I'm hoping there's not a fly ash problem. I grew up in a coal burning house (enameled Warm Morning like the Amish around here burn) and I don't ever remember fly ash collection being a problem. I guess I'll check it, monthly to see what it's going to do?

Here's what was there feeding oil furnace exhaust directly into the block webbing:

Image

 
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Post by Trionic » Mon. Dec. 03, 2018 10:18 pm

Richard S. wrote:
Fri. Nov. 23, 2018 11:31 am
Quick tip here, wherever you are going to put an elbow on the flue pipe between the unit and thimble use a T instead. For example typically you will have straight piece coming out of the thimble and then an elbow pointing down. If you use a T instead you can cap the one end of the T, that can be used to inspect and even clean out the pipe during the season.
Richard S. I just wanted to follow-up and say thank you again. Using a tee there for future cleanout even got me a little attaboy from my mid-70's Dad who made a basement visit to inspect my work, he's been burning coal for maybe all his life and doesn't give up compliments very easily. :yes:

Here's how it is tonight:
Image

The next time I put in a clay thimble I'm going to be sure to use the cut end facing the room. I put the 'factory edge' facing out thinking it looked a little better, and when I went to slide the pipe into it is when i found that the ID necked down at the end. The ID for most of the pipe was perfect otherwise. If anyone else is reading this in the future, be sure to check the ID on both ends before you install it lol. I had quite a bit of work with the grinder to open things up.

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This Kodiak really idles nicely.

Oh, also, maybe this'll help another first-timer like me, but the Dwyer Mark II comes with two aluminum 1/8" NPT x tubing fittings. The big box stores have all kinds of brass 1/8 NPT fittings and copper nipples. I just drilled a hole and tapped the 24 gauge stove pipe and ran a tap through it real quick and snugged a copper nipple up with a coupling for the tubing fitting, no saddle fittings or anything on the 24 gauge. I may have some problems if I ever have to work the nipple in an out a few times, there's only maybe a thread or two but it's a "Q" size drill bit 0.332. Everyone on here indicated that the tubing that comes with the Dwyer it isn't good for heat so I just went straight for silicone vacuum hose.
Last edited by Trionic on Mon. Dec. 03, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by Trionic » Mon. Dec. 03, 2018 10:39 pm

Image

Who knew they made white Tapcons?

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Dec. 03, 2018 10:47 pm

Nicely done...

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Tue. Dec. 04, 2018 2:05 am

Take about 18 inches of soft copper tubing and wind it around a can or anything 2 to 2 1/2 inches in diameter with a straight leg at each end. That will take all the heat off the plastic tubing. You might want to think about a MPD and moving the tap for the Dwyer closer to the stove below the MPD. Your chimney is much taller than mine and I get enough draft that without the MPD the primary air gets way too sensitive.

 
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Post by Trionic » Tue. Dec. 04, 2018 11:41 pm

ddahlgren wrote:
Tue. Dec. 04, 2018 2:05 am
...without the MPD the primary air gets way too sensitive.
The primary air IS way sensitive.

Gee, thanks for the post. I just spent the last hour reading to page 11 of 24 instead of sleeping :D : Manual Pipe Dampers .. How, Why, When

So, with reading the first half only, I can definitely see the benefit of increasing back-pressure prior to the barometric damper which should decrease the sensitivity of the draft controls. The way this chimney draws I don't think it's possible for me to get into CO trouble (we're also running multiple CO alarms) even if a manual damper is shut the whole way; I've looked at the manual dampers on the shelf at the store, but just figured they were for wood or when you didn't have a barometric damper.

On a different front, from a performance standpoint, what should a target pipe temperature be measured before the barometric damper? Realizing more lower is more better and that it's a moving target in relation to burn rate... You've inspired me, I'm going to put a clipboard down there and record stove body and pipe temp deltas.

I guess I should start weighing the coal and marking draft positions too.


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