Draft Checks

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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 6:50 pm

McGiever wrote:
Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 4:50 pm
I wasn't implying a flow through. It just that some adjacent stove areas are far from dust free and about every 12 hours some airborne stuff may go wherever the air currents may carry it. It's pretty cheap insurance even if you might be a doubter. :P

I just hang a length of tube on mine, but I did put my Disclaimer in my post Lee, non-restrictive filter. ;)
Right, I was just clearing things up for people that might see this later on. :yes:


 
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joeq
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Post by joeq » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 7:04 pm

Gentlemen, we're back! I think Larry must've hit on something, concerning the vent port on the back of the gauge. If anyone had noticed my thread on a different section of this site, I had a problem with my garage propane heater, and it turned out the pilot calibrated orifice, must've been clogged, cause a minor blast of compressed air, unclogged it, and it works perfectly now. Same thing on this "mantel manometer". I had the gauge out of the housing a number of times, checking the supply tube and area, but totally forgot about the vent.
It's recessed, (kinda hidden, if you're not looking for it), and I just flat out overlooked it. Here's what the back looks like, and the housing during fabrication.
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In the lower middle port, (the upper one is the supply) there's a calibrated hole, (maybe .030?), so I "gently" huffed and puffed, (watching the needle carefully move in a mirror), and put it back together, and it appears to be reading normally again.
I opened the MPD, DD, and ash pan door, and it immediately went to -.06-7, and in a few minutes, (the barrel temp was climbing to 650°, it was at -.08. I'm sure if I let it go longer it would've risen. Closing the MPD, and in BH mode, ash pan door shut, and adjusted, she's cruising at -.03-.04. After that, because there was a bunch of slack in the hose, I trimmed about 4' off of that too, to eliminate any kinks with that in the future.
The gauge now is responding to adjustment, as it did before, so I'm pretty confident with it. Because the red juice is coming for the Dwyers Mach II, I'll compare them just for ha has. Sorry again for the thread drift, and Steve, maybe we can get back to comparing notes this week-end. :yes:
Thanks again Mc G. :)

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 7:26 pm

Joe, I think you need a hole in the back of that mantel clock frame. If installing the gauge creates a seal against the wood frame that would cause the inaccurate measurement. I question the clogged tube, how would it get clogged?

 
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Post by joeq » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 7:36 pm

I've said it B4, and I'll say it again.."you guys never miss a trick" :lol:
I knew some-one would observe that, and I'll give it to you Lee, cause you're the 1st one to respond. (I know others would be noticing it too, but you win for now).
Anyway, in the lower photo I posted, you'll see a clearance channel or chaseway, that I drilled and chiseled into it.
What's not shown, is the last channel I made, connects to the one pictured, so that the port can breath, through the bottom hole the supply hose runs through. There's plenty of clearance.
"Plus", the back of the gauge has added clearance to the back wall, cause it also is recessed. So I think a hole in the back isn't needed. The reason I built it like that, is so there wouldn't be an exposed hole on the backside of the housing.
But thanks for the suggestion. :D

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Feb. 09, 2018 7:48 pm

You have more confidence than I do when it comes to using all those fancy fittings :lol:

 
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Post by joeq » Sun. Feb. 11, 2018 1:09 pm

Now to get back on track...finally. Not sure about the necessity or value of this test, but hey, information is there for the taking, if you can use it. It wasn't a huge deal to set it up, and the stove or laboratory mice weren't harmed in any way. The modified mount bolt on the DD damper can be replaced with its original at any time. I'll leave it in for now, if anyone desires another check, in a different mode. Here's a couple pics to see where the new connection port is. In the interior of the the barrel photo, if you look closely at the 9 o'clock bolt, you'll see the drilled 1/8th inch hole.
Image
Drilling it out in the drill press, was pure luck, and took the 1st shot.
The next problem was getting a connection on the rear or outside of the stove. That bolt/nut registered about 550°, and a conventional rubber hose wasn't cutting it. :o The bolt was an M6, (1.0x30mm) and fit snuggly in the flange hole. I happened to have some copper tubing a bit smaller than 1/4", (1/8th"?), and was able to tap it to thread onto the bolt, to get it away from the heat. From there I was able to connect the two hoses with some rubber tubing. It's not pretty, but I'm confident there aren't any leaks. I also blew air through it, in case any ash had accumulated. In the photo below, you'll notice the hose is connected normally to the pipe. It was just a matter of disconnecting the white rubber hose to the clear plastic hose.
Image
Results to follow.

 
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Post by joeq » Sun. Feb. 11, 2018 1:34 pm

OK, so here's the baseline.
Stove was clean, topped off with LA nut, and clear of ash...(mostly)
Barrel temp was a fiery 520°, the MPD was mostly closed, draft @ -.02, stove set to BH mode. I then disconnected the hoses and reconnected to the CC port.
The draft went immediately to 0, and I watched it for about a minute, with no change. I then opened the MPD wide, and the draft climbed to -.02. Finally, I diverted the damper from BH, to DD and the draft rose to -.04.
I could understand the lack of reading in the CC when it dropped to 0, in the BH mode, cause the heat is being pulled downward, or away from the CC port. But what was impressive was when it went to -.02 when the MPD was opened. I didn't think it would register at all. When finally placed in the MPD wide open, and the DD damper in full, (out of BH mode), I can understand why the exiting air past the port hole would show a bit higher.
I then returned the hose connection to the pipe,and those reading repeated, showing there was consistency.
I also opened the MPD wide, back on the pipe readings, and it read -.04-5, and lastly went to DD after, which went to about -.06-7 quickly. I didn't wait for any long term readings.
So in a nutshell, this 111 combustion chamber sees some minor influences in draft, compared to the stove pipe reading. Hope some of you "scientist types" can shed a little more light on what I took out of it. ;)


 
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Post by scalabro » Sun. Feb. 11, 2018 2:12 pm

I’m not surprised at those readings Joe. Your reasoning about “0” draft in Base mode with the MPD closed, is right. There is no, or very little draft up in the top of the barrel when the stove is in that configuration. Like Paul has mentioned before, it’s a huge plenum.

The two spots to instrument, to really get all “Einstein” would be IN the coal pile and somehow directly on top of it🤪hahahahaha

 
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Post by joeq » Sun. Feb. 11, 2018 3:05 pm

It was hard enuff working with the heat coming off the barrel, on the back of the stove, when I was hooking up the copper tubing, Scott. I don't think it would be anymore fun shoving my hands or fingers into a burning coal fire. "BUT", in the interest of saving the planet, if someone thought it to be important, I'll bet we could conjure something up. We do have access to some elaborate metals, in work. Tubine blades, vanes, hot section components are all manufactured out of some kind-a inconel material that is impervious to heat, (almost). Wouldn't want to have-ta drill it, or use a cut-off wheel on it tho. :?

 
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Post by joeq » Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 5:43 pm

I finally received my Dwyers red oil the other day, and refilled my manometer, so I could run the 2 next to each other W/O having to disconnect and reconnect hoses. Talk about underestimating the amount needed to run the gauge. It took a few tries of adding and removing to the residual that was still inside, W/O having the inclined tube filled too far, or too little. The adjustment knob altho has lots of travel, doesn't have as much influence as you would think. Naturally it needs to be checked level too. I forget how much was in the bottle that I ordered, but have enuff to last...well, longer than I need. If anyone wants me to send them a vile, I can afford to let some go. Anyway, this is what the bottle looks like, and think was only about $20.
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The original smaller bottle on the left, that I re-filled, lost only a few drops to top off the gauge.
Once I placed the manometer in a location behind the stove, I noticed the placement of the hose was "extremely" sensitive to height or positioning. If I raised or lowered the hose, (never mind the gauge), the liquid in the tube would race to one end or the other depending. So I needed to have the hose secured where it would run, and then zero out the manometer.
So I've been watching the 2 gauges the past few days, to see what the readings are doing, and was totally buffaloed once when I came home, (after a longer burn). The pot was somewhat ashed, (normally) but there was still quite a bit of life to the fire. And forgive me for being a little erratic here, but I didn't write anything down. Not thinking it was needed until I witnessed what was happening, then it was too late.
when I first arrived home, I noticed that the Dwyers, (which is hooked to the CC port, and the Mag. manometer to the pipe), the CC dwyers was reading a flow "way up" around -.1! Here's a pic, tho a bit blurry.
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That was in BH mode, and MPD and primaries shut down to a sliver. So I opened the MPD to see if the dwyers would increased, but it didn't. This is what the Mag. mano read.
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I did try to recheck the zero on the dwyers, but it was very unstable, or unrepeatable"?, and I wasn't all that trusting of what I was seeing.
Maybe this weekend, I'll try experimenting, and playing with it, to see if I can make any sense of it. The weather is little flaky right now, but think I still will be lit.

 
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Post by franco b » Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 6:02 pm

The mano reading over the fire is the most critical and depending on stove configuration, the most important. It is the one that counts above all others since it alone reflects draft conditions basic to the fire.

At the breech is convenient and usually adequate to surmise conditions over the fire, but not always, as in forced combustion air in stokers, or where stove configuration can effect the reading.

Joe is absolutely correct in double checking over fire draft.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 6:20 pm

Joe,
As you know, the Mark II has to be leveled side-to-side using the built-in bubble level. But it also has to be level in a vertical plain also, such as when it's screwed to a wall. If it's just sitting on a shelf, the underside of the plastic case is slightly angled and can throw off the readings a bit.

Paul

 
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Post by michaelanthony » Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 6:22 pm

Hi joeq! If filled properly and level, (left to right & front to back), you should be able to see zero when disengaged. Good luck bro!

edit: Paul you beat me by a nanosecond lol!

 
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Post by joeq » Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 6:57 pm

[/quote]
franco b wrote:
Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 6:02 pm
The mano reading over the fire is the most critical and depending on stove configuration, the most important. It is the one that counts above all others since it alone reflects draft conditions basic to the fire.

At the breech is convenient and usually adequate to surmise conditions over the fire, but not always, as in forced combustion air in stokers, or where stove configuration can effect the reading.

Joe is absolutely correct in double checking over fire draft.
I'm sure there's a lot going on inside there FB, 'specially with the 2 modes available. I don't know where to even start, IE comparisons from the pipe to the CC? Maybe only in BH mode, check the readings from a weak fire, to a hot one? I need to do one thing only 1st, to try and prove some consistency, B4 doing any comparisons, cause if it won't repeat, the tests would be inconclusive, to me anyway.
Sunny Boy wrote:
Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 6:20 pm
Joe,
As you know, the Mark II has to be leveled side-to-side using the built-in bubble level. But it also has to be level in a vertical plain also, such as when it's screwed to a wall. If it's just sitting on a shelf, the underside of the plastic case is slightly angled and can throw off the readings a bit.
Paul
I did witness that Paul, and right now it is slightly tilted on a shelf, (Maybe about 3-5°) but if it's zeroed, wouldn't the readings be relevant from highs to lows?
michaelanthony wrote:
Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 6:22 pm
Hi joeq! If filled properly and level, (left to right & front to back), you should be able to see zero when disengaged. Good luck bro!

edit: Paul you beat me by a nanosecond lol!
Checking and setting zero Mike can be confusing too. If I pinch the tube to stop the flow to the gauge, it should drop to 0 right? But if I disconnect the hose, and release the hose, put my finger over the end or even place my finger over the supply port on the manometer, I get different readings. I guess I should read the directions on the proper method.

 
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Post by KingCoal » Thu. Feb. 15, 2018 7:38 pm

OK now we're getting some where.

READ the directions fill and zero the gauge properly and get back to us. :D ;)

steve


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