Broken Shaker Grate Nub Clayton Hotblast

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Tue. Mar. 10, 2015 5:13 pm

In the last 4 heating seasons, I've broken 3 grates where the shaker handle attaches to the grate. The first two happened during the first winter and then again at the beginning of the second heating season. This last time happened a few days ago at the backside of the my 4th year while closing in on spring time.. And if you are reading this because you too have broken a grate nub, I feel your pain. It's that distinct sensation of "OMG WTF am I gonna do now!" and it sucks.. :lol: I'm only a few days into what I believe is the permanent fix to this (at least I pray to god it is). Here is what I've done.

At the axle of the shaker handle is a 5/8 inch square hole for the grate post to insert into. Also, at the female end of the shaker grate, there is also a 5/8 inch square hole. But, unfortunately this end of grate is at the backside of the firebox, which of course makes it impossible to get at. So, what I did is I rotated the entire grate set (including the frames) 180 degrees so that now the female end is accessible at the ash pan door.

I went to the local hardware store and bought a chunk of 5/8 inch solid steel stock which measures 5.5 inches long. I had to graze off the surface (with a bench grinder) of the new piece so that it would penetrate into the grate as far as possible and also slide into the shaker handle easily. The piece of steel cost $1.65 :lol: where a new grate is $60.00 and was (up until now) the only solution. Time will tell if its gonna last. But one thing for sure is that this end of the grate seems a heck of a lot stronger than that meager little cast iron nub that just can't seem to stand up to the shake down abuse.

So far I've only done 2 shake downs and the first thing that is glaringly noticeable is that there is NO slop between the shaker handle and the grate at all. Love it..
Does this post have some kinky connotations to it? or is it just me? :dancing:

Edit - I just wanted to mention that I read about this turning around of the grate set trick on this board somewhere but I can't find it. I had it tucked away in my mind to use on a rainy day.. :)

Attachments

20150309_142149.jpg

Broken shaker grate nub.

.JPG | 140KB | 20150309_142149.jpg
20150309_142221.jpg

After rotation of the grate set.
This is the Female end.

.JPG | 154.6KB | 20150309_142221.jpg
20150309_142426.jpg

Top side of the shaker grate with new piece of steel.

.JPG | 153.1KB | 20150309_142426.jpg
20150309_142537.jpg

Bottom side of the shaker grate with the new steel.

.JPG | 145.2KB | 20150309_142537.jpg
20150309_144302.jpg

Everything back together.

.JPG | 147.8KB | 20150309_144302.jpg
Last edited by Lightning on Tue. Mar. 10, 2015 8:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.


 
coalder
Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: Mon. Dec. 16, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: somewhere high in the catskill mountains
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Post by coalder » Tue. Mar. 10, 2015 5:27 pm

Lee, don't know if this means anything, but a friend of mine runs a Vogelzang furnace in his shop, and grates seem identical to yours. This year two grates broke at the cranking nub. He ordered two new grates and already another broke. Called their sales rep and they agreed to send him two at no cost. This guy is a retired plumber/steamfitter and is suspect of very inferior casting, probably from China. I dunno, but thought I would just throw this out for speculation.
Jim

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Tue. Mar. 10, 2015 5:31 pm

Thank you for the reply.. Yes I agree these cast iron grate nubs cannot take the torque required to do the job. I also believe you are correct, these grates are all the same for his Vogelzang. It was nice that he was able to get new grates at no cost, wow... Point him towards this thread, maybe this would be a solution for him too.. :)

 
coalder
Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: Mon. Dec. 16, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: somewhere high in the catskill mountains
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Post by coalder » Tue. Mar. 10, 2015 6:05 pm

Lee, this guy isn't anywhere close to being a computer guy. : just someone been burning for 6 years and is highly mechanically inclined. I also for got to mention that he is also certified welder. He is in process of re welding the failed grates; to be used as spares. Just too coincidental all these grate failures at one time???
Jim

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Tue. Mar. 10, 2015 6:26 pm

I've been told that welding cast iron is a futile battle. But I hope he has success with it. If the welds hold, please come back and tell.. I've got three of them that need welded if this recent fix fails.. :lol:

If yer friend don't get on the puter, just explain what I've done.
It might save him a great amount of heart ache.
Sounds like it would be easy for him to understand given his skill set.. :)

As far as them breaking all at once, mine were spread out over a few years. I don't think its coincidental. They just have a design flaw. The first grate I broke was an original that came with the furnace and was 6 years old. The second one was less than a year old.

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Tue. Mar. 10, 2015 10:47 pm

Update - Shake down this evening went flawless. Its really refreshing to feel the shaker handle so tight and sturdy as compared to how much slop there was before. The shaker nub on the original grate was only 1/2 inch going into a 5/8 inch shaker handle, so you can imagine the play between them.. Now with the nub being 5/8 inch it makes a grate, er I mean a great connection.. :D

 
User avatar
michaelanthony
Member
Posts: 4550
Joined: Sat. Nov. 22, 2008 10:42 pm
Location: millinocket,me.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box stove
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Gold Marc Independence
Baseburners & Antiques: Home Sparkle 12
Coal Size/Type: 'nut
Other Heating: Fujitsu mini split, FHA oil furnace

Post by michaelanthony » Wed. Mar. 11, 2015 8:13 am

Nice job thinking outside the box, as you have experienced in the past and others have kept replacing the grates. :idea: Maybe this could be a "MUST DO" operation for all Newbies before the very first fire. It would be nice to see how long your retro-fit lasts on a new unit!


 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25567
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Mar. 11, 2015 8:22 am

I'd stick with only using that socket end and forget about getting the stub ends welded. It won't be stronger and you'll likely be back to breaking the stub ends off again.

If you think about the length of material out from the center point, plus the square areas of the 1/2 inch square stub verses the material that makes up the socket casting, in cross section, plus how far out the material is from the rotational center point, the half inch square stub is weaker than the casting forming the socket end of the grate.

For the same amount of material in cross section, a tube shape is stronger in resisting torque forces because, by not having a solid center, the material is moved out farther from the rotational center where the leverage forces acting on it are less.

If something is going to break let it be the inexpensive and easily replaced square bar stock.

Paul

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Wed. Mar. 11, 2015 9:36 am

michaelanthony wrote:Nice job thinking outside the box, as you have experienced in the past and others have kept replacing the grates. :idea: Maybe this could be a "MUST DO" operation for all Newbies before the very first fire. It would be nice to see how long your retro-fit lasts on a new unit!
Thank you Mike! I can't take full credit for the thinking part since the seed for the idea came from here somewhere.. :) and I hope this is the solution to the weak link with these units. As far as doing it first thing, that would be a problem unless the original grate nub is purposely broken off. Otherwise it will grind at the back wall and possibly wear a hole thru the firebox, or the grate set won't fit at all when its rotated the 180 degrees. The rotation of the grate set should be the next step instead of purchasing a new grate just to have it break again.

Paul - I agree that welding the nub probably isn't the cure for this. And your thinking about how the leverage is moved outward to the socket is also exactly how I looked at the physics aspect also.. :)

Thank you both for the replies!

 
User avatar
Ky Speedracer
Member
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun. Dec. 21, 2014 9:38 pm
Location: Middletown, Kentucky
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Florence HotBlast NO.68 & Potbelly
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HotBlast 1557M
Coal Size/Type: Ky Lump & Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil

Post by Ky Speedracer » Wed. Mar. 11, 2015 9:48 am

Lightning, is that piece of steel driven in pretty tight (after grinding) and just held in with surface tension? Or did you set screw it somehow?
Nice work!

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Wed. Mar. 11, 2015 9:52 am

Ky Speedracer wrote:Lightning, is that piece of steel driven in pretty tight (after grinding) and just held in with surface tension? Or did you set screw it somehow?
Nice work!
Thank you for the compliment! :D No it isn't driven in tight, and I purposely didn't set screw it in place so that it could be removed easily incase needed. But, there is very little if any play between the new steel and the grate and between the grate handle. It feels 10 times more solid. Have you broken any grate nubs yet?

 
User avatar
Ky Speedracer
Member
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun. Dec. 21, 2014 9:38 pm
Location: Middletown, Kentucky
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Florence HotBlast NO.68 & Potbelly
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HotBlast 1557M
Coal Size/Type: Ky Lump & Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil

Post by Ky Speedracer » Wed. Mar. 11, 2015 10:06 am

Not yet. I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
Most of the bit I use is at least fist sized lumps. When it turns to coke it's pretty brittle. So if it gets in between the grate and frame it usually will flake apart if you put any amount of force on it. I get a few little clinkers put not many. And they are brittle so they will usually break apart.
After my fire burns down it looks more like a wood fire. Lots of ash and very little in the way of hard coal left.
Most of what I've seen with anthracite, it appears there is still a fair amount of solid coal in the fire bed during tending. Of course the benefit of that is that your fires stay at a much steadier temp for longer burn times where my bit is burned out completely out after 14 to 16 hours. The last 3 or 4 hours of that long burn the stove temp is right around 200* or sometimes less.

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Wed. Mar. 11, 2015 10:10 am

Cool! Well if you break a nub, I would advise you to do this instead of buying a new grate. So far its been a winner and I can't foresee it being unsuccessful at this point. But stranger things have happened I'm sure.. :lol:

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Sat. Mar. 14, 2015 10:36 pm

Another quick update on the recent grate nub "fix"..
It's been working fantastic! The only thing that is difficult for me is adjusting to the less travel that is needed on the shaker handle during shake down. I've gotten use to the slop between the grate nub and the handle over the last 4 burning seasons, and now there ain't none! :lol:

 
KingCoal
Member
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed. Apr. 03, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Elkhart county, IN.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1 comforter stove works all iron coal box stove, seventies.
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner, GW #6, GW 113 formerly Sir Williams, maybe others at Pauliewog’s I’ve forgotten about
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Post by KingCoal » Sat. Mar. 21, 2015 11:19 am

Lightning wrote:In the last 4 heating seasons, I've broken 3 grates where the shaker handle attaches to the grate. The first two happened during the first winter and then again at the beginning of the second heating season. This last time happened a few days ago at the backside of the my 4th year while closing in on spring time.. And if you are reading this because you too have broken a grate nub, I feel your pain. It's that distinct sensation of "OMG WTF am I gonna do now!" and it sucks.. :lol: I'm only a few days into what I believe is the permanent fix to this (at least I pray to god it is). Here is what I've done.

At the axle of the shaker handle is a 5/8 inch square hole for the grate post to insert into. Also, at the female end of the shaker grate, there is also a 5/8 inch square hole. But, unfortunately this end of grate is at the backside of the firebox, which of course makes it impossible to get at. So, what I did is I rotated the entire grate set (including the frames) 180 degrees so that now the female end is accessible at the ash pan door.

I went to the local hardware store and bought a chunk of 5/8 inch solid steel stock which measures 5.5 inches long. I had to graze off the surface (with a bench grinder) of the new piece so that it would penetrate into the grate as far as possible and also slide into the shaker handle easily. The piece of steel cost $1.65 :lol: where a new grate is $60.00 and was (up until now) the only solution. Time will tell if its gonna last. But one thing for sure is that this end of the grate seems a heck of a lot stronger than that meager little cast iron nub that just can't seem to stand up to the shake down abuse.

So far I've only done 2 shake downs and the first thing that is glaringly noticeable is that there is NO slop between the shaker handle and the grate at all. Love it..
Does this post have some kinky connotations to it? or is it just me? :dancing:

Edit - I just wanted to mention that I read about this turning around of the grate set trick on this board somewhere but I can't find it. I had it tucked away in my mind to use on a rainy day.. :)
the reasonable simplicity of this fix should also make it perfectly clear that it is likely misguided at best and unsustainable at worst.

i'll get back to you with all the charts and graphs for why, later. :lol:

great work. why in the heck aren't they put together that way from the factory ?!?


Post Reply

Return to “Hand Fired Coal Stoves & Furnaces Using Anthracite”